# Proof of the resurrection of Jesus Christ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 24, 2018, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129 "2018-03-24T21:26:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/241 "2018-03-26T14:49:50Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Quetzals are such pretty birds. If I felt like worshipping an animal, that one would be pretty high on the list. Heck with that-only the One True Quetzalcoatlus is truly worthy of worship and veneration (plus with that razor sharp 3 foot long beak you aren’t exactly going to be arguing)… ---
**Author:** ![A\_Odom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b487fb/32.png) [@A\_Odom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_Odom)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/242 "2018-03-26T15:32:29Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Past threads: [Why do you believe that Jesus was physically Resurrected?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=412001) > > Discussion of mythicist position here: [Was Jesus Real or a Myth?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=749965) I originally thought the hypothesis of the mythic Jesus was ludicrous; discussion at this board has led me to upgrade it to improbable. In other words, I can’t rule it out but I think other scenarios are more likely. > > As for the OP, the earliest Christian documents are the letters of Paul: they precede Mark, which precedes the remaining 3 gospels. I would start there. Mark can be dated to sometime after the fall of the Temple in Jerusalem, which occurred in 70 CE, about 40 years after Christ’s death. > > More generally, a nice documentary describing contemporary archeological and scholarly investigation of very early Christianity is [From Jesus to Christ](https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/). The linked website also has some good background materials. Thanks for the link. I will view it when I have time. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/243 "2018-03-26T15:33:42Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > As a gentile (tho I do have 2% Ashkenazi DNA), I’ve seen a fair number of incidents of disdain and derision from other gentiles, aimed at the “messianic Jew” or “Jew for Jesus” contingent. Comments like “they’re still jews” (NOT said in a good way), and “too late, they should have converted sooner” have been heard more than once, often from my extended family. > > YMMV but that’s something I’ve seen. Casual racism is strong in my part of rural America. Huh. That’s something I’ve never run across, in nearly five decades as a born-again Christian. (Quite the opposite!) Of course, until this past year or so, anti-Semitism had been a thing of the past in the circles I’ve traveled in. (And I’d notice: my father was Jewish.) Without the dubious honor of encountering these people myself, I’d be unable to say whether they’re more “we accept you as Christians, but go to the back of the bus,” or “you’re a fucking Jew, converting doesn’t change that, we hate you either way.” (ISTM that Broomstick was talking about the former, rather than the latter.) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/244 "2018-03-26T15:45:16Z")
I seem to recall “Jews For Jesus” as being a Christian organization that promotes the idea that it is possible to be both a Jew and a Christian at the same time, using Jewish symbols and “explaining” how they are _really_ Christian symbols. There is nothing sillier than seeing a Christian minister dressed up like his idea of a rabbi. There is a good article about their methods [here.](http://www.aish.com/sp/ph/48918997.html) ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/245 "2018-03-26T15:47:52Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I seem to recall “Jews For Jesus” as being a Christian organization that promotes the idea that it is possible to be both a Jew and a Christian at the same time, using Jewish symbols and “explaining” how they are _really_ Christian symbols. There is nothing sillier than seeing a Christian minister dressed up like his idea of a rabbi. There is a good article about their methods [here.](http://www.aish.com/sp/ph/48918997.html) Well, its also critical that Jews accept Jesus as the messiah - otherwise, he’s just another wannabe - its marketing. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/246 "2018-03-26T16:20:23Z")
> [@simster](#): > > “Clearly an act of Satan to test our faith to the one true god.” Works for me. But the thing is, if the OP agrees, then I’m at a loss as to why proper documentation of eyewitness testimony is such a big deal: if it _wouldn’t_ cement the divine bona fides of a wonder-worker who is seen triumphing over death to preach the worship of Hades or Poseidon or Zeus or whoever, then — well, then, why _would_ it be important to establish whether Jesus came back from the dead? If we grant that, as you say, a supernatural feat can be the act of _another_ entity, then I’d see lousy documentation as lousy evidence that anything interesting happened; but really terrific documentation would prove — _what,_ exactly? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/247 "2018-03-26T16:27:47Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Works for me. But the thing is, if the OP agrees, then I’m at a loss as to why proper documentation of eyewitness testimony is such a big deal: if it _wouldn’t_ cement the divine bona fides of a wonder-worker who is seen triumphing over death to preach the worship of Hades or Poseidon or Zeus or whoever, then — well, then, why _would_ it be important to establish whether Jesus came back from the dead? > > If we grant that, as you say, a supernatural feat can be the act of _another_ entity, then I’d see lousy documentation as lousy evidence that anything interesting happened; but really terrific documentation would prove — _what,_ exactly? They have said exactly that (not all, but some) - when faced with the fossil record or the lack of evidence for a global flood, etc - its all a ‘test by satan of our faith’ and its exactly the connundrum they face - If someone goes on TV today claiming a burning bush spoke to them - they get called crackpots and delusional - but they accept the word of a 2000 year old manuscript ‘because’. If same book was published today - it would be ignored. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/248 "2018-03-26T16:54:22Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/249 "2018-03-26T17:06:22Z")
I feel like I need to read _Half-Asleep in Frog Pajamas_ again just now, since it starts on Good Friday and runs across a weekend, with backstory padding. I think we could accept the Jesus story on the basis of intervention by advanced extraterrestrials who were able to restore his body over a day and a half (why the fuck does everyone say 3 days when he was crucified on Friday, taken down at sunset and released from his tomb on Sunday morning), and that could also explain the tribes in Mali who have a celebration of Sirius every 50 years when there is no way that they could have known that Sirius is a binary system with a 50 year cycle. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/250 "2018-03-26T17:09:06Z")
I’m locking this temporarily while I fix coding issues. Unlocking in a second. eta: Okay, fixed 3 instances of nested quote tags and tags not closed. I indicated each with an edit remark, but please let me know if I messed anything up. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/burpo_the_wonder_mutt/32/365_2.png) [@burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burpo_the_wonder_mutt)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/251 "2018-03-26T17:17:28Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > I feel like I need to read _Half-Asleep in Frog Pajamas_ again just now, since it starts on Good Friday and runs across a weekend, with backstory padding. > > I think we could accept the Jesus story on the basis of intervention by advanced extraterrestrials who were able to restore his body over a day and a half (why the fuck does everyone say 3 days when he was crucified on Friday, taken down at sunset and released from his tomb on Sunday morning), and that could also explain the tribes in Mali who have a celebration of Sirius every 50 years when there is no way that they could have known that Sirius is a binary system with a 50 year cycle. I think Jesus rose on the third day of the Passover celebration. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/252 "2018-03-26T17:18:27Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > …and that could also explain the tribes in Mali who have a celebration of Sirius every 50 years when there is no way that they could have known that Sirius is a binary system with a 50 year cycle. Yeah, about that-[extraterrestrials are probably not the most likely source for what the Dogon tribe actually believes.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogon_people#Dogon_astronomical_beliefs) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/253 "2018-03-26T17:18:41Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > That is a pious tradition, not supported by fact. The Gospel attributed to John is anonymous, and even devout Christian scholars date it late first century or early second century, which means that if a contemporary of Jesus wrote it, he must have been 90 or so. Not very likely. Indeed, John was the youngest Apostle and tradition says he lived to a great age at Ephesus. 80 & 90 yo men were not that rare. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/254 "2018-03-26T17:20:54Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > There are no ancient non-Christian accounts of Jesus’ alleged resurrection. None. There are only a few fleeting mentions of any kind about him. Well, since Jesus only showed up to Christians- and one Jewish gentleman who converted- that is rather to be expected, eh? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/255 "2018-03-26T17:23:18Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Some of the gospels are estimated to be from around 70CE. If a disciple was ten years younger than jesus, he could have been around 60. That is not unheard of in the ancient world – I think Socrates was over 70 when he had a cocktail. But it is very unlikely that any of them actually wrote the text. They might have, maybe, attested to scribes/historians, but those are probably not their actual words except, possibly, as transcribed. Indeed, that is the current consensus, that John dictated his remembrances. Which were edited by his followers. But do note, very few people wrote their own stuff back then, they relied upon scribes and secretaries. Caesar was considered unusual in that. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/256 "2018-03-26T17:24:24Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, since Jesus only showed up to Christians- and one Jewish gentleman who converted- that is rather to be expected, eh? Was it only Christians that saw all the zombies shambling towards town? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/257 "2018-03-26T17:28:35Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > You did not offend me personally. > Then why aren’t they called Christians? > I’m not surprised. However, it is considered such by some people. > > “Messianic Jews” are the only group of Christians identified not as “Christians” but by their former religion/ethnicity (or even the religion of their ancestors, as in my experience their children and grandchildren are likewise called “Messianic Jews” rather than the Christians they are). Why single then out? Why not make them full members of the Christian community? Why are they rejected as Christians and given a different label? Well, they are, but most of them still follow the Jewish dietary customs, etc, and dont often go to a mainstream Christian Church. They also refer to themselves as "believers’ not Christians. I know a few, out in Santa Monica, and they do NOt call themselves Christians. They use the term “maaminim”. There is indeed a whole wiki article on the movement, and no one else thinks using the term is Anti-Semitic. It is the proper name for the movement: > **[Messianic Judaism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism)** > > Messianic Judaism (Hebrew: .mw-parser-output .script-hebrew,.mw-parser-output .script-Hebr{font-family:"SBL Hebrew","SBL BibLit","Taamey Ashkenaz","Taamey Frank CLM","Frank Ruehl CLM","Ezra SIL","Ezra SIL SR","Keter Aram Tsova","Taamey David CLM","Keter YG","Shofar","David CLM","Hadasim CLM","Simple CLM","Nachlieli",Cardo,Alef,"Noto Serif Hebrew","Noto Sans Hebrew","David Libre",David,"Times New Roman",Gisha,Arial,FreeSerif,FreeSans}יַהֲדוּת מְשִׁיחִית‎ or יהדות משיחית‎, Yahadút Mešiḥít) is a m... Messianic Judaism is a modern syncretic religious movement that combines Christianity—most importantly, the Christian belief that Jesus is the Messiah—with elements of Judaism and Jewish tradition,[1][2][3][4][5] its current form emerging in the 1960s and 1970s.[1][2][6][7][8][9][10][11] Messianic Judaism believes that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah and “God the Son” (one person of the Trinity), and that the Hebrew Bible, Old Testament, and New Testament are all authoritative scriptures.[12][13][14][15] Salvation in Messianic Judaism is achieved only through acceptance of Jesus as one’s savior,[8][13][14][15][16][17] and Jewish laws or customs which are followed do not contribute to salvation.[16][17] Belief in the messiahship of Jesus, his power to save, and his divinity are the defining distinctions between Christianity and Judaism.[18][19][20][21][22][23] Other Christian groups usually accept Messianic Judaism as a form of Christianity.[24] Many adherents of Messianic Judaism are ethnically Jewish[25] and argue that the movement is a sect of Judaism.[26] Many refer to themselves in Hebrew as maaminim (believers), not converts, and yehudim (Jews), not notzrim (Christians).[27] So, you are completely, utterly wrong on this. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/258 "2018-03-26T17:31:29Z")
“I just traveled with The Son Of God, then watched as he was crucified, and was amazed when he rose from the dead to talk with us right before he was lifted to Heaven! I think I’ll wait until I’m so old I can barely remember the details to get it written down…or maybe I’ll just leave it to the next generation to do it-I didn’t write anything down, but I’m sure they will remember my tales accurately.” In what possible way does this make any sense? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/259 "2018-03-26T17:43:20Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > “I just traveled with The Son Of God, then watched as he was crucified, and was amazed when he rose from the dead to talk with us right before he was lifted to Heaven! I think I’ll wait until I’m so old I can barely remember the details to get it written down…or maybe I’ll just leave it to the next generation to do it-I didn’t write anything down, but I’m sure they will remember my tales accurately.” > > In what possible way does this make any sense? Because there were already several other accounts, and of course the Q document, but Johns disciples likely talked him into it. Not to mention Christianity was actually taking off as a movement. In any case, he may well have been talking to his disciples all along but they waited until he died to publish. Really, you should learn something about the formation of the New Testament. Anyway, that is the current consensus among Scholars. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/260 "2018-03-26T18:09:56Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Indeed, John was the youngest Apostle and tradition says he lived to a great age at Ephesus. 80 & 90 yo men were not that rare. No doubt. I mean, Adam lived to like 900 or something, and Sara didn’t give birth until she was 90. How do I know this is true? It’s in the Bible. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129.md?page=14)