# Proof of the resurrection of Jesus Christ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 24, 2018, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129 "2018-03-24T21:26:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/421 "2018-03-27T21:59:20Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > I did that. In all 4 gospel accounts of that Sunday morning, **no one** witnessed the resurrection. Bending over backwards to be fair, I think he meant eyewitnesses to the risen Jesus, rather than his actual resurrection (which, if it happened, would have been in a sealed tomb). But it’s curious that even according to the Bible, nobody believed it UNTIL they had seen him with their own eyes. The disciples allegedly saw Jesus performing miracle after miracle (including raising other people from the dead) for three years, but even when their best friends, even when their own brother, told them that Jesus had risen, they didn’t believe it. Thomas didn’t even believe it when he did see it, not until he touched him. These guys were hand-picked by Jesus. They’re all saints now. I think we should follow their example. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/422 "2018-03-27T22:04:20Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Again, that is not 'argument by authority". I do not claim that because those worthies believe you should also. My argument is simply that those men are rational and objective , despite **Rieman** s claim that he can define who is and who is not rational and objective. We were discussing evidence for the resurrection. He said that it’s not rational to take what we have, and using that, accept that the resurrection actually happened. Your rebuttal was to say that Newton et al. believed it and they were rational, so there! But Newton didn’t believe based on evidence for the resurrection - he couldn’t have because there isn’t any that’s at all worthwhile. Whatever reasons Newton had for being a Christian, it wasn’t because some guy wrote a letter to some other people 700 miles away, claiming that 500 people saw the resurrected Jesus. Or if by some chance it was that, that just shows us a blind spot in Newton’s otherwise rationality. So if you’re not citing the evidence that convinced this list of luminaries, then yes, you are simply making an argument from authority. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/423 "2018-03-27T22:12:08Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > John saw and recorded what Thomas did, that’s not hearsay. Thomas had his chance to clarify this, but didn’t. 😉 > **[Gospel of Thomas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Thomas)** > > The Gospel of Thomas (also known as the Coptic Gospel of Thomas) is an extra-canonical sayings gospel. It was discovered near Nag Hammadi, Egypt, in December 1945 among a group of books known as the Nag Hammadi library. Scholars speculate that the works were buried in response to a letter from Bishop Athanasius declaring a strict canon of Christian scripture. Scholars have proposed dates of composition as early as 60 AD and as late as 250 AD. Since its discovery, many scholars have seen The Co... ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/424 "2018-03-27T22:20:58Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > But Newton didn’t believe based on evidence for the resurrection - he couldn’t have because there isn’t any that’s at all worthwhile. Whatever reasons Newton had for being a Christian, it wasn’t because some guy wrote a letter to some other people 700 miles away, claiming that 500 people saw the resurrected Jesus. Or if by some chance it was that, that just shows us a blind spot in Newton’s otherwise rationality. And if it needs to be said, you can’t really go by anything that people believed (or claimed to) before the 20th century, because before then we didn’t know about the nuclear reactions that allow the sun to shine for billions of years, which in turn gives enough time for things like evolution. Before Darwin’s theory of evolution, there was no strong rebuttal to the Watchmaker argument, among others. If there is no rational alternative to the Bible, and society demands (depending on the time and place, possibly with the death penalty for heresy) that you believe it, then a rational person is at least going to profess belief. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/425 "2018-03-27T23:10:08Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > **DrDrth** , it’s not even slightly credible to claim that the gospels are, ahem, the “gospel truth” as related in absolute fact by primary witnesses who were there for all events. > > Firstly, there’s good reason to believe that the gospels are partially based off of one another, demonstrating elaborations as the fish story evolved or was elaborated on over time. > . No one is making that claim. Matthew, Mark and Luke are either based off one another or off the Q source. John, however, is not. Learn a bit about the materials you are attacking, eh? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/426 "2018-03-27T23:15:51Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No one is making that claim. > > Matthew, Mark and Luke are either based off one another or off the Q source. John, however, is not. > > Learn a bit about the materials you are attacking, eh? By the fact you didn’t quote or respond to the rest of my post I presume you agree that all four gospels are third person accounts that have omniscient narrators and perfect recall decades later and are, thus, obviously fiction. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/427 "2018-03-27T23:16:21Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And you are welcome to point out the passage in that book concerning the evidence that convinced Newton concerning the resurrection. > You know…the actual topic? Have you read that book by Euler? Lavoisier was well known for his public defense of scripture. Priestly was a clergyman, as was Faraday, Maxwell was known for his evangelism, Mendel was a abbot, Boyd lectured on Christianity, and so forth. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/428 "2018-03-27T23:17:41Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > By the fact you didn’t quote or respond to the rest of my post I presume you agree that all four gospels are third person accounts that have omniscient narrators and perfect recall decades later and are, thus, obviously fiction. No- the rest of your quote was complete garbage, not worthy of a reply. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/429 "2018-03-27T23:19:18Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No- the rest of your quote was complete garbage, not worthy of a reply. By the fact you didn’t quote or respond to the rest of my post I presume you agree that all four gospels are third person accounts that have omniscient narrators and perfect recall decades later and are, thus, obviously fiction - and don’t want to admit it. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/430 "2018-03-27T23:21:23Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > [it is not about one particular word](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2012/apr/20/was-jesus-gay-probably) Of course, not. It is about throwing one wild speculation on top of different wild speculations. Your source provides nothing more than a claim that “Well, it _coulda_ happened.” _meh_ Your claim was that Jesus asserted a specific truth and your link provides even less evidence than your misunderstanding of a single translated word. Since the rest of the crowd has not risen to the bait\*, I see no reason to pursue it. \*This is not an accusation of trolling, which I do not believe you were attempting. I just wanted to be sure that others did not misunderstand the reference you threw out. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/431 "2018-03-27T23:25:10Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > By the fact you didn’t quote or respond to the rest of my post I presume you agree that all four gospels are third person accounts that have omniscient narrators and perfect recall decades later and are, thus, obviously fiction - and don’t want to admit it. No. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/432 "2018-03-27T23:31:38Z")
Well, let me put it this way - your utter refusal to engage in debate about topics that are uncomfortable to you (due to them utterly destroying your position) leaves me in a position to shrug and say, “Well, if that’s the best he can do, he really doesn’t have any evidence, crappy or otherwise, suggesting that Jeshua ever got resurrected.” And really, that appears to be the situation. The case for Jeshua (aka Jesus) having been resurrected is _entirely_ dependent on people taking the bible’s word for gospel - and more specifically for people take some rather dubious accounts and letters as being factual accounts despite the nature of their content and providence. There is no evidence for this resurrection outside this credulous reading of the bible. Unless you’re a mormon, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/433 "2018-03-27T23:39:55Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Well, let me put it this way - your utter refusal to engage in debate about topics that are uncomfortable to you (due to them utterly destroying your position) leaves me in a position to shrug and say, “Well, if that’s the best he can do, he really doesn’t have any evidence, crappy or otherwise, suggesting that Jeshua ever got resurrected.” > . If you had bothered to read the whole debate, you will see I have discussed most of your points, which seem to be based upon a rather large ignorance of Biblical scholarship and thus are not worthy of addressing. For example, not all Gospels are third person accounts, that has been discussed here at length. Also you are quite ignorant of the Synoptic gospels, and how they came about. Declaring yourself the winner in a debate as someone is unwilling to discuss ridiculous points is rather childish. You other points are based upon ignorance and not bothering to read the debate here. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/434 "2018-03-27T23:56:35Z")
It’s impossible to win a debate on the internet. It’s possible to lose one, though. I will confess that I haven’t made a terribly specific study of the bible - I only read _good_ fiction. But it remains the case you have to give the bible credence as fact before you can claim to have objectively available reason to believe this resurrection nonsense. Which puts people in favor of the resurrection claim in the unenviable position of trying to present the book as what it clearly isn’t - a historical novel penned by the very hand of God, such that every individual sentence in it can be presumed to be completely factual and true, untainted by bias, exaggeration, hearsay, or lies. If one does not credit the writers of the bible with the purest of honesty and accuracy, then things fall apart pretty quickly. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/435 "2018-03-28T00:16:01Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Learn a bit about the materials you are attacking, eh? Just askin’, but have you or any of the other Christian Apologists, especially the OP, ever read any books on other Christian sects, much less other faiths? Or simply those who disagree with you? F’rinstance, > [@Wikipedia](#): > > The Gospel of John is anonymous. According to a Church tradition dating from the 2nd century, first attested by Irenaeus, the author was “the Disciple whom Jesus loved” mentioned in John 21:24, who is understood to be John son of Zebedee, one of Jesus’ Twelve Apostles. These identifications, however, are rejected by many modern biblical scholars. Nevertheless, the author of the fourth Gospel is sometimes called John the Evangelist, often out of convenience since the definitive name of the author is still debated. > **[Gospel of John](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_John)** > > The Gospel of John\[a\] (Ancient Greek: Εὐαγγέλιον κατὰ Ἰωάννην, romanized: Euangélion katà Iōánnēn) is the fourth of the four canonical gospels in the New Testament. It contains a highly schematic account of the ministry of Jesus, with seven "signs" culminating in the raising of Lazarus (foreshadowing the resurrection of Jesus) and seven "I am" discourses (concerned with issues of the church–synagogue debate at the time of composition) culminating in Thomas' proclamation of the risen Jesus as "... Irenaeus was born in the second century, some time after the so-called Gospel of John was written, adding several relay stations to the Biblical game of Telephone we’re playing. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/436 "2018-03-28T00:58:47Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > I did that. In all 4 gospel accounts of that Sunday morning, **no one** witnessed the resurrection. The tomb was empty when they got there, except for a glowing space alien or two. There were, according to the bible, **no eye-witnesses**. > > And I am not sure where you get Saul of Tarsus. As I understand it, he never actually met the guy, and his epiphany was decades after the fact. They all met the Risen Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/437 "2018-03-28T00:59:59Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > Your rebuttal was to say that Newton et al. believed it and they were rational, so there! You know, in order to debate, you really have to actually, you know, READ the posts.:rolleyes: At no time did I make this claim. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/438 "2018-03-28T01:02:14Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I will confess that I haven’t made a terribly specific study of the bible - I only read _good_ fiction. > . Yet, you still make claims and arguments based upon ignorance. …and then demand others take said ignorant arguments seriously, and debate them. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/439 "2018-03-28T01:08:20Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > They all met the Risen Jesus. Or at least claimed to - there is no evidence (beyond their ‘word’ ) that they did. keep in mind, that in order for their new faith to be of any value and not die a quick death, their messiah HAD to be resurrected, otherwise he couldn’t do the things he said he was going to do. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/440 "2018-03-28T01:21:51Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Or at least claimed to - there is no evidence (beyond their ‘word’ ) that they did. > > keep in mind, that in order for their new faith to be of any value and not die a quick death, their messiah HAD to be resurrected, otherwise he couldn’t do the things he said he was going to do. There is no evidence beyond their word that any of these people existed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129.md?page=23)