# Proof of the resurrection of Jesus Christ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 24, 2018, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129 "2018-03-24T21:26:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2018, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/562 "2018-04-01T21:18:36Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > One of the issues is that the farther back in History you go, the harder it is to prove people exist… The following rather famous people are doubtful: Pythagoras Homer Lycurgus Confucius Sun Tzu Aristotle King David- well, there was a “King” named David, but that’s about all we know. For a non-King, Jesus is actually pretty fairly well documented. For decades, some thought Pontius Pilate was also made up by the NT writers, but they found one small piece of stone that mentioned his name . So there is a guy who was the Prefect of Judaea, a Roman Procurator- who other than a brief mention in a couple ancient works- had no archeological evidence until 1961. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2018, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/563 "2018-04-01T22:42:04Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > You can prove my nineteen year old son exists - there is a birth certification, adoption paperwork filed in state court, passport information held by the State Department. Tax returns. Driver’s license. School records. Draft registration. Bank accounts. Employment records. A speeding ticket (or two). Plus a social media footprint, a few hundred living people who will say “yeah, I know him - I went to high school with him.” Or so you say. :dubious: 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/564 "2018-04-02T00:15:07Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > For a non-King, Jesus is actually pretty fairly well documented. Infrequently mentioned, yes. Documented, no. There is a difference, and for all we know, the mentions are generated by hearing about fictitious events and believing, or wanting, them to be true, then repeating the bullshit. Repeating a fairy tale doesn’t make it true no matter how many times you do it or how sincerely you believe it. > [@](#): > > For decades, some thought Pontius Pilate was also made up by the NT writers, but they found one small piece of stone that mentioned his name . So there is a guy who was the Prefect of Judaea, a Roman Procurator- who other than a brief mention in a couple ancient works- had no archeological evidence until 1961. Whether or not Pontius Pilate existed has no bearing on Jesus’ existence, let alone resurrection. If I write a fictitious story and include names of New York and Donald Trump, that doesn’t cast any light on the veracity of my fiction. In fact, there’s a whole genre of writing that performs exactly that way. Check your library for the vast “historical fiction” shelves. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/565 "2018-04-02T01:01:44Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Infrequently mentioned, yes. Documented, no. There is a difference, and for all we know, the mentions are generated by hearing about fictitious events and believing, or wanting, them to be true, then repeating the bullshit. Repeating a fairy tale doesn’t make it true no matter how many times you do it or how sincerely you believe it.Whether or not Pontius Pilate existed has no bearing on Jesus’ existence, let alone resurrection. > > If I write a fictitious story and include names of New York and Donald Trump, that doesn’t cast any light on the veracity of my fiction. In fact, there’s a whole genre of writing that performs exactly that way. Check your library for the vast “historical fiction” shelves. wait. wait… next you’ll tell me that Abraham Lincoln did not - in fact - fight vampires. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/566 "2018-04-02T01:56:29Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > I wonder who would have been watching the tomb. I mean, they put his body in there probably around 8 or 9 pm on Friday night and then went to observe the first Sabbath of Passover. One should expect that there was no one at the tomb until Sunday. So we have no idea how long he was dead because no one saw him get up. The Greys could have begun surgery on him fairly quickly after everyone left and had him up and moving about even before midnight and then been on their way back to their saucer. As the story in Matthew goes, the Pharisees put a guard in front of the tomb, fearful that Jesus’ followers would steal the body and claim he was resurrected. It apparently doesn’t occur to many that this suggests stealing the body then making holy claims about it was entirely a thing people worried about. So if the accounts were correct and Jesus’ body did vanish from the crypt, Occam’s razor and Bayesian reasoning tell us that it’s far more likely that shenanigans by his followers is far more likely than a supernatural event. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/567 "2018-04-02T02:07:09Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The following rather famous people are doubtful: > Pythagoras > Homer > Lycurgus > Confucius > Sun Tzu > Aristotle > King David- well, there was a “King” named David, but that’s about all we know. > > For a non-King, Jesus is actually pretty fairly well documented. For decades, some thought Pontius Pilate was also made up by the NT writers, but they found one small piece of stone that mentioned his name . So there is a guy who was the Prefect of Judaea, a Roman Procurator- who other than a brief mention in a couple ancient works- had no archeological evidence until 1961. By those standards of documentation, Betty Crocker and Mavis Beacon are well documented historical personages. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/568 "2018-04-02T02:33:55Z")
And if the Jim Jones cult becomes a big thing in 75 years, it will still be true that Jim Jones was a real man, who really did lead a cult. But that would not constitute proof of his divinity. And we know that Joseph Smith really existed, and the Mormom Church is doing fine and may well still be around in 2,000 years in some form. If people then want to prove his existence, they will certainly be able to. But that does not constitute proof of the claims he made. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/569 "2018-04-02T05:31:56Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Infrequently mentioned, yes. Documented, no. There is a difference, and for all we know, the mentions are generated by hearing about fictitious events and believing, or wanting, them to be true, then repeating the bullshit. Repeating a fairy tale doesn’t make it true no matter how many times you do it or how sincerely you believe it. > . Josephus was pretty much in the know about the happenings with the stoning of James, the Brother of Jesus. No one seriously doubts his sources on that. Josephus is one of the major historians of that period, and much of what we know about that period is based upon his writing. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/570 "2018-04-02T05:34:24Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > By those standards of documentation, Betty Crocker and Mavis Beacon are well documented historical personages. Really- which Historian mentioned them in their history books as real people? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/571 "2018-04-02T05:36:18Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > And if the Jim Jones cult becomes a big thing in 75 years, it will still be true that Jim Jones was a real man, who really did lead a cult. But that would not constitute proof of his divinity. > > And we know that Joseph Smith really existed, and the Mormom Church is doing fine and may well still be around in 2,000 years in some form. If people then want to prove his existence, they will certainly be able to. But that does not constitute proof of the claims he made. No one is saying that the existence of Smith proves the Book of Mormon. But desperately trying to affirm one’s Atheism by trying to prove that Smith never existed doesnt add anything to that side either. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/572 "2018-04-02T06:35:10Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No one is saying that the existence of Smith proves the Book of Mormon. But desperately trying to affirm one’s Atheism by trying to prove that Smith never existed doesnt add anything to that side either. That’s not what he’s trying to do, and you know it. Being disingenuous does nothing to forward your argument. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/573 "2018-04-02T14:39:48Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Really- which Historian mentioned them in their history books as real people? :rolleyes: Which Historian are we 100% sure has mentioned Christ in his book as a real person - keeping in mind that both historical accounts have indications that the mentions of Christ were added by different writers afterwards? Ancient sources are really hard to verify. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/574 "2018-04-02T14:55:22Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Ancient sources are really hard to verify. And often quite religiously biased. Example: Most of John’s work (or the person(s) who are now called “John”) appears to be an embellishment of earlier writers like Mark. If Mark didn’t provide enough detail to make the story complete, John supplied it, even though he wasn’t closer to the events than Mark. Lacking corroborating evidence, we can safely speculate that he made it up. “Damn it, Jesus is a god, and if he doesn’t come off divine enough, we’ll make him divine!” Today, we would call them [forgeries,](https://www.amazon.com/Forgery-Christianity-Documented-Foundations-Christian/dp/1599869101) a common way of writing back then. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/575 "2018-04-02T17:23:15Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > That’s not what he’s trying to do, and you know it. Being disingenuous does nothing to forward your argument. I didnt say “you” I said “one” , I was not accusing \*him \*of doing that. Several other posters are doing that very thing. They cling desperately to their religion- Atheism, and in order to prove they are True Believers, they have to try to prove a person never existed. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/576 "2018-04-02T17:25:10Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Which Historian are we 100% sure has mentioned Christ in his book as a real person - keeping in mind that both historical accounts have indications that the mentions of Christ were added by different writers afterwards? > > Ancient sources are really hard to verify. Josephus. Josephus had two mentions of Jesus, one is original, the other was there but has been edited so we dont know that the original said. Most historians believe it was some mention of Jesus, but indeed, that mention was almost certainly edited later. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/577 "2018-04-02T17:26:12Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > And often quite religiously biased. > > Example: Most of John’s work (or the person(s) who are now called “John”) appears to be an embellishment of earlier writers like Mark. If Mark didn’t provide enough detail to make the story complete, John supplied it, even though he wasn’t closer to the events than Mark. . Umm, no, not at all. John is not one of the Synoptic Gospels. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/578 "2018-04-02T17:37:54Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I didnt say “you” I said “one” , I was not accusing \*him \*of doing that. Several other posters are doing that very thing. They cling desperately to their religion- Atheism, and in order to prove they are True Believers, they have to try to prove a person never existed. Who the fuck is trying to **prove** that he never existed? Many people have questioned whether there is ample evidence to show that the person in question actually lived. I see no one literally trying to prove that he did not. Solid proof either way is probably not to be had. The burden is on the christians, who claim that this stuff genuinely did happen, to support it with real evidence. Because there are some gaping flaws and inconsistencies in the story. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/579 "2018-04-02T17:51:02Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Josephus. Josephus had two mentions of Jesus, one is original, the other was there but has been edited so we dont know that the original said. Most historians believe it was some mention of Jesus, but indeed, that mention was almost certainly edited later. I’d say many, not most, and some also discount the first. But a single source or even two does not create a verifiable existence. Moreover, there are no copies of Josephus that predate the eleventh century, make it very difficult for scholars to verify what was actually wrote contemporaneously. Finally, standards for ancient Historians (even Historians writing as recently as the early 20th century) were very different than standards for Historians today. By 19th century standards - much less 1st century standards - there is plenty of evidence to write about a historical Betty Crocker - there are photos of her, and letters written by her and magazine articles about her (which do not state she is fictional) - that is far more evidence than Josephus would have had access to in order to verify the existence of Christ - had it ever even occurred to him that verification was a necessary part of being a historian. I believe Christ probably existed, and I believe Richard probably ordered the murder of his nephews - but as someone who considers myself a historian (albeit amateur), I’d never state that there is proof for any of that - evidence - yes - somewhat weak evidence of both, but evidence. But not proof. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/580 "2018-04-02T18:01:57Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Who the fuck is trying to **prove** that he never existed? Many people have questioned whether there is ample evidence to show that the person in question actually lived. I see no one literally trying to prove that he did not. Solid proof either way is probably not to be had. The burden is on the christians, who claim that this stuff genuinely did happen, to support it with real evidence. Because there are some gaping flaws and inconsistencies in the story. There is no “proof” of the Resurrection, nor of any Miracles. There is evidence, but certainly the evidence is likely biased and to many not strong enough to prove extraordinary events. Fine. The Burden here is on the Christians. Believe it or Not. But there’s plenty of evidence that Jesus actually lived. Even Cecil sez so. The Burden here is on the Atheists. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/581 "2018-04-02T18:05:25Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Umm, no, not at all. John is not one of the Synoptic Gospels. So what? > [@DrDeth](#): > > But there’s plenty of evidence that Jesus actually lived. Even Cecil sez so. The Burden here is on the Atheists. Whether he lived or not doesn’t prove a supernatural event happened. And since there is a supernatural claim involved, the burden is on the claimant and those are not atheists. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129.md?page=30)