# Proof of the resurrection of Jesus Christ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 24, 2018, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129 "2018-03-24T21:26:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/582 "2018-04-02T18:08:12Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But there’s plenty of evidence that Jesus actually lived. Even Cecil sez so. The Burden here is on the Atheists. There aren’t many people who have ever denied that there was a man named Yeshua living in Nazareth two thousand years ago, or that he said enough inspirational things to enough people that the Roman authorities thought their power was threatened. The atheists deny only the mystical, son of God stuff that was accreted later. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/583 "2018-04-02T18:12:52Z")
If there is no proof of a resurrection or miracles whether Jesus actually lived is really irrelevant. One should also note the number of Jesuses . . . Jesii, and would-be Messiahs there were during the period. I’m curious exactly what constitutes “evidence” for a resurrection and/or miracles. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/584 "2018-04-02T18:18:40Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > So what?. You made this claim: “Most of John’s work (or the person(s) who are now called “John”) appears to be an embellishment of earlier writers like Mark. If Mark didn’t provide enough detail to make the story complete, John supplied it, even though he wasn’t closer to the events than Mark. .” \*\* That claim is false\*\*. You obviously dont know much about the formation of the New Testament. There are three Synoptic Gospels, and yes at least one of them drew heavily on a earlier writer. John, however, is not a Synoptic Gospel and did not draw upon the other three. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/585 "2018-04-02T18:19:49Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > I’m curious exactly what constitutes “evidence” for a resurrection and/or miracles. Eyewitness testimony. Now, you can discount that testimony are biased or unreliable, sure. But like it or not, it is still 'evidence". ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/586 "2018-04-02T18:29:26Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Eyewitness testimony. Now, you can discount that testimony are biased or unreliable, sure. But like it or not, it is still 'evidence". Name your eyewitnesses. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/587 "2018-04-02T18:36:37Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > There aren’t many people who have ever denied that there was a man named Yeshua living in Nazareth two thousand years ago, or that he said enough inspirational things to enough people that the Roman authorities thought their power was threatened. You’re stretching things here. I think it’s more likely than not that there was someone named Yeshua that the stories Paul told, and the gospels, were loosely based on. I would not go so far as to say I think he said lots of inspirational things - I think those are much more likely to be glommed onto the legend in later years. And the idea that the Roman authorities executed him because they thought their power was threatened is kind of ridiculous. Some hayseed apocalyptic prophet comes wandering into the city with a rag-tag band of followers, and the Romans felt threatened? Why would you say that? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/588 "2018-04-02T18:41:21Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > I would not go so far as to say I think he said lots of inspirational things - I think those are much more likely to be glommed onto the legend in later years. Okay then, how did the legend start? > [@](#): > > And the idea that the Roman authorities executed him because they thought their power was threatened is kind of ridiculous. All it takes is one power-hungry, or paranoid, military ruler who can get the rest of the power structure to fall in line. It doesn’t matter if Jesus was really a threat, only that TPTB thought him one. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/589 "2018-04-02T18:48:01Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > There is no “proof” of the Resurrection, nor of any Miracles. There is evidence, but certainly the evidence is likely biased and to many not strong enough to prove extraordinary events. Fine. The Burden here is on the Christians. Believe it or Not. > > But there’s plenty of evidence that Jesus actually lived. Even Cecil sez so. The Burden here is on the Atheists. How is the burden on the atheists? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/590 "2018-04-02T18:57:58Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Okay then, how did the legend start? Saul of Tarsus took some acid\*, went out for a ride, and had a vision. Jesus was a guy someone had mentioned to him, so that is who he imagined that he saw. The entire christian religion formed around Paul (Saul of Tarsus). His writings are amongst the oldest, possibly predating the gospels. The entire religion revolves around him – Jesus is just there on the drum kit. \*the grain fungus ergot produces a hallucinogenic chemical closely related to the precursor to LSD ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/591 "2018-04-02T19:01:15Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You obviously dont know much about the formation of the New Testament. There are three Synoptic Gospels, and yes at least one of them drew heavily on a earlier writer. John, however, is not a Synoptic Gospel and did not draw upon the other three. You’re grasping at straws in an attempt to prove your religious hopefulness. From [Gospel of John](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_John) > [@](#): > > John clearly shares a multitude of episodes with the other three. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/592 "2018-04-02T19:02:21Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Name your eyewitnesses. Already did. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/593 "2018-04-02T19:06:16Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > You’re grasping at straws in an attempt to prove your religious hopefulness. From [Gospel of John](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_John) Well, yes, of course. All for Gospels recount the Life of Jesus. But John is NOT based upon the Synoptic Gospels. \*Sources Rudolf Bultmann, in a seminal work published in 1941, argued that John’s sources were a hypothetical “Signs Gospel” listing Christ’s miracles, a revelation discourse, and a passion narrative. Bultmann’s work, combined with that of other scholars (the work of Raymond E. Brown was particularly influential in the English-speaking world), led to a scholarly consensus in the second half of the 20th century that the Gospel of John was independent of Matthew, Mark, and Luke, known as the “Synoptic Gospels.” This agreement broke down in the last decade of the century, and there are now many scholars who believe that John did know the Synoptics, especially Mark, while the hypothesis of a “signs” source has been increasingly undermined.[28] But theories of either complete independence or complete dependence on the Synoptics are largely rejected in current scholarship: on the one hand, elements such as distinctive Johannine language, the lengthy discourses, and the prologue on the Logos, are clearly unique to John; on the other, John clearly shares a multitude of episodes with the other three.[29] The most important sources used by the evangelist were the Jewish scriptures (the Tanakh, more or less identical with the Christian Old Testament), probably in the Greek translation. John quotes from them directly, references important figures from them, and uses narratives from them as the basis for several of the discourses. But the author was also familiar with non-Jewish sources: the Logos of the prologue (the Word that is with God from the beginning of creation) derives from both the Jewish concept of Lady Wisdom and from the Greek philosophers, while John 6 alludes not only to the exodus but also to Greco-Roman mystery cults, while John 4 alludes to Samaritan messianic beliefs.[30]\* Read bout the Synoptic gospels: [Synoptic Gospels - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synoptic_Gospels) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/594 "2018-04-02T19:08:00Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > How is the burden on the atheists? Because nearly every scholar and historian says that the evidence is clear and there was a real Jesus. Saying that this person didnt exist is the extraordinary claim. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/595 "2018-04-02T19:08:57Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Okay then, how did the legend start? How many inspirational or witty quotes or stories are (falsely) attributed to Einstein or Mark Twain or Abraham Lincoln? Or to others? How many have staying power despite the benefit of modern technology to set us straight? Sure, the actual people existed. They still didn’t say or do many of the things they’ve been attributed with. It happens to famous people who are alive right now - the amount of absolute and refutable BS reportedly said or done by celebrities but still widely believed is often astounding. It would be more shocking if there were no embellishments or fabrications at all. And even more shocking if the more unbelievable quotes and stories weren’t the ones to propagate the fastest. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/596 "2018-04-02T19:18:23Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But there’s plenty of evidence that Jesus actually lived. Even Cecil sez so. The Burden here is on the Atheists. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Because nearly every scholar and historian says that the evidence is clear and there was a real Jesus. Saying that this person didnt exist is the extraordinary claim. you seem confused - where do Atheists claim “Jesus” didn’t exist? Where in the definition of ‘Atheist’ is ‘Jesus’ mentioned? ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/597 "2018-04-02T19:22:45Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, yes, of course. All for Gospels recount the Life of Jesus. But John is NOT based upon the Synoptic Gospels. Then why are some of the stories the same, but John’s version is more detailed, or just different in details? No matter how you slice it, later writers retelling the same basic tale do not strengthen the premise that the original was true or even happened unless some additional, independent evidence is available. We have little to none of that. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/598 "2018-04-02T19:24:30Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > How many inspirational or witty quotes or stories are (falsely) attributed to Einstein or Mark Twain or Abraham Lincoln? Or to others? How many legends have any serious numbers of people taking them seriously that were about people _who never existed_? That’s what’s under discussion, for some reason - the claim that there are people denying that there ever was a man named Jesus who attracted a following. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Saying that this person didnt exist is the extraordinary claim. It is indeed. Who’s making that claim? ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/599 "2018-04-02T19:26:05Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Because nearly every scholar and historian says that the evidence is clear and there was a real Jesus. Saying that this person didnt exist is the extraordinary claim. [This scholar & historian disagrees with you.](https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Never-Existed-Introduction-Ultimate/dp/098969724X/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8) Or are you now going to say that Humphreys isn’t a _true_ scholar and historian? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/600 "2018-04-02T19:27:02Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > How many legends have any serious numbers of people taking them seriously that were about people _who never existed_? That’s what’s under discussion, for some reason - the claim that there are people denying that there ever was a man named Jesus who attracted a following. > > It is indeed. Who’s making that claim? No, that _isn’t_ what this is about-that is what some want to make it about because that strawman is much easier to tackle than the question asked in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/601 "2018-04-02T19:35:07Z")
The OP that was left in the dust 12 pages ago? Nothing more to say about it, just mop-up action. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129.md?page=31)