# Proof of the resurrection of Jesus Christ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 24, 2018, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129 "2018-03-24T21:26:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2018, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/81 "2018-03-25T18:11:03Z")
> [@P-man](#): > > I don’t feel like I’m making any concessions. To me it’s about how I treat my fellow humans, not believing that the laws of nature were sometimes reversed by a deity back in the old days. I believe what I believe, and I ain’t gonna lie about it. If the God of the fundamentalists existed, do you think he’d be fooled by someone who takes Pascal’s wager? FWIW, I think, ‘I believe what I believe because I believe it’, is the most honest and compelling argument a theist can make in the face of overwhelming lack of evidence. I don’t think any god worth his weight would be fooled by some cynical ploy to stay in his good graces. That said, your view is hardly the mainstream Christian view, is it? ---
**Author:** ![P-man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/p-man/32/3606_2.png) [@P-man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/P-man)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2018, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/82 "2018-03-25T18:11:51Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Maybe. The god of the fundamentalists seems to be a cruel psychopath who desperately requires adulation to validate himself. Which would explain why so many fundamentalists adore our current president. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2018, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/83 "2018-03-25T18:17:02Z")
> [@P-man](#): > > Which would explain why so many fundamentalists adore our current president. Really? I view their support of the current president as a ‘Trump’s Wager’, i.e. They support him in hopes of achieving objectives they really want in this world. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2018, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/84 "2018-03-25T18:20:41Z")
I have to ask, though, if you throw out the whole “redemption” narrative, what is really left of Christianity? We can piss on fundamentalists, but at least there’s some internal logic to their behavior. If you don’t believe any of it is literally true, what’s the point? It not as though there’s any profound moral philosophy in the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![P-man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/p-man/32/3606_2.png) [@P-man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/P-man)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2018, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/85 "2018-03-25T18:37:40Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I have to ask, though, if you throw out the whole “redemption” narrative, what is really left of Christianity? We can piss on fundamentalists, but at least there’s some internal logic to their behavior. If you don’t believe any of it is literally true, what’s the point? It not as though there’s any profound moral philosophy in the Bible. I think it’s there, but it isn’t unique to Christianity. If it conflicts with “love the neighbor” and “treat others as you want to be treated” I toss it. I could care less what anyone thinks about the existence of nonexistence of any deity. I realize that my religious views often satisfy neither believers nor nonbelievers. To the believers, I say “what are you gonna do if heaven is full of people you spent your life believing were damned?”. To the nonbelievers, I say " see you in hell. I’ll try to sneak in some ice water for us. " ---
**Author:** ![A\_Odom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b487fb/32.png) [@A\_Odom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_Odom)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2018, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/86 "2018-03-25T18:53:28Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Surprise decree from Ceasar? I thought this was some sort of regular event that everyone knew about? It was not a regular event. This had not occurred previously. Not only did the prophesy come true, it shows God’s fore-knowledge of the future event of Ceasar’s decree. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2018, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/87 "2018-03-25T18:55:44Z")
> [@A\_Odom](#): > > It was not a regular event. This had not occurred previously. Not only did the prophesy come true, it shows God’s fore-knowledge of the future event of Ceasar’s decree. Again: since you seem big on documentation, is there documentation of this odd event getting decreed in _had-not-occurred-previously_ fashion at said time? ---
**Author:** ![P-man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/p-man/32/3606_2.png) [@P-man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/P-man)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2018, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/88 "2018-03-25T19:00:04Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > FWIW, I think, ‘I believe what I believe because I believe it’, is the most honest and compelling argument a theist can make in the face of overwhelming lack of evidence. I don’t think any god worth his weight would be fooled by some cynical ploy to stay in his good graces. That said, your view is hardly the mainstream Christian view, is it? Not mainstream, but not as uncommon as you might think. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2018, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/89 "2018-03-25T19:04:01Z")
> [@P-man](#): > > And how many adherents believe that The Buddha actually uttered all the sayings attributed to him? > [@Yogi Berra](#): > > I never said most of the things I said. … ---
**Author:** ![A\_Odom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b487fb/32.png) [@A\_Odom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_Odom)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2018, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/90 "2018-03-25T19:06:16Z")
> [@A\_Odom](#): > > Sorry, I do not have the book handy. I will add the title later. I was referring to the book “The Case for Easter,” by Lee Strobel (Zondervan c. 1998, 2003). Lee Strobel was an atheist reporter for the _Chicago Tribune_, whose wife became a Christian. He decided to investigate the claims in order to disprove them. He started with the resurrection. He focused on 3 questions (1) Was Jesus really dead (at the time he was entombed)? (2) Was his tomb empty on the 1st Easter morning? (3)Did credible people encounter him after his death? His investigation changed him from a cynic to a Christian. ---
**Author:** ![A\_Odom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b487fb/32.png) [@A\_Odom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_Odom)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2018, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/91 "2018-03-25T19:13:46Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > It is generally agreed that Mark’s Gospel predates those of Luke and Matthew by decades; it is to Mark whom we must look first for history. > > Yet, Mark’s Gospel begins with Jesus’ adult baptism and ends without any post-mortem sighting! No Nativity; no mention of Joseph (Jesus is simply “Son of Mary”); and certainly minimal evidence for any resurrection. Instead of 100’s of witnesses, we have one (1) 3rd-hand witness: > King James Authorized Bible has 12 additional verses which report 14 witnesses to a resurrected Jesus, but UIAM it is generally agreed that _ **these were later additions to Mark’s Gospel** _ which Christians were forced to make: a resurrection-free Gospel would be unacceptable. That is not the only Biblical passage referring to witnesses to Jesus’ resurrection. Glad to see you are seeking for the truth, though. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2018, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/92 "2018-03-25T19:31:42Z")
The Apostle John was a eyewitness, and wrote about it in his Gospel. Of course, he was biased. There is a lot of argument about the birth of Jesus, but isnt that a bit of a sidetrack here? (Everything can be explained, but let’s not get into that, eh? Next Christmas is the tradition time) There are quite a few historical references to Jesus.[Sources for the historicity of Jesus - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sources_for_the_historicity_of_Jesus#Relevant_sources) I want to point out that that is really a LOT. We have almost nothing to show that Socrates really lived, except by the works of his followers, such as Plato. Same with Pythagoras and Lycurgus. Not to mention Sun Tzu and several others. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2018, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/93 "2018-03-25T19:33:33Z")
> [@A\_Odom](#): > > I was referring to the book “The Case for Easter,” by Lee Strobel (Zondervan c. 1998, 2003). Lee Strobel was an atheist reporter for the _Chicago Tribune_, whose wife became a Christian. He decided to investigate the claims in order to disprove them. He started with the resurrection. He focused on 3 questions (1) Was Jesus really dead (at the time he was entombed)? (2) Was his tomb empty on the 1st Easter morning? (3)Did credible people encounter him after his death? His investigation changed him from a cynic to a Christian. [This Lee Strobel?](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Lee_Strobel) I’ll stop short of calling him a liar and just say he takes certain ‘liberties’ in his [del]writing[/del] witnessing. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2018, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/94 "2018-03-25T19:37:39Z")
> [@A\_Odom](#): > > That is not the only Biblical passage referring to witnesses to Jesus’ resurrection. Glad to see you are seeking for the truth, though. Is Christianity the last word on god/faith? ---
**Author:** ![P-man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/p-man/32/3606_2.png) [@P-man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/P-man)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2018, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/95 "2018-03-25T19:40:48Z")
> [@A\_Odom](#): > > I was referring to the book “The Case for Easter,” by Lee Strobel (Zondervan c. 1998, 2003). Lee Strobel was an atheist reporter for the _Chicago Tribune_, whose wife became a Christian. He decided to investigate the claims in order to disprove them. He started with the resurrection. He focused on 3 questions (1) Was Jesus really dead (at the time he was entombed)? (2) Was his tomb empty on the 1st Easter morning? (3)Did credible people encounter him after his death? His investigation changed him from a cynic to a Christian. Strobel is not without his critics, even among Christians. Check out the article "The Case For (and Problem With) “The Case For Christ” in America magazine (The Jesuit Review). I’m not trying to convince you to abandon your faith. However, I daresay many more people have lost their faith in seminary than have found it after reading Christian apologetics. Proof texting is unlikely to convince anyone who isn’t already inclined to believe. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2018, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/96 "2018-03-25T19:43:13Z")
> [@A\_Odom](#): > > I was referring to the book “The Case for Easter,” by Lee Strobel (Zondervan c. 1998, 2003). Lee Strobel was an atheist reporter for the _Chicago Tribune_, whose wife became a Christian. He decided to investigate the claims in order to disprove them. He started with the resurrection. He focused on 3 questions (1) Was Jesus really dead (at the time he was entombed)? (2) Was his tomb empty on the 1st Easter morning? (3)Did credible people encounter him after his death? His investigation changed him from a cynic to a Christian. The “You should listen to me because I was a former atheist/Satanist/liberal/whatever!” is a common claim, usually by those who shown themselves to be woefully ignorant of their supposed former beliefs. Strobel was a former reporter who may or may not have been an atheist-this “fact” doesn’t seem to have any support in his writings prior his claim of conversion. I’ve read a couple of his books, and he has a tendency to take at face value just about any Christian claim put forth. He may have been a reporter at one time, but I can see why he switched professions because he certainly isn’t a competent reporter now. ---
**Author:** ![A\_Odom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b487fb/32.png) [@A\_Odom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_Odom)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2018, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/97 "2018-03-25T19:44:48Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Just Joseph and Mary personally, or did everyone in Judea and Galilee have to return to their ancestral homes? If the latter, we’re talking a considerable disruption, the kind of thing that would get noticed. I cannot find a non-Christian reference to this “registration” (instead of a “tax”), but here is one that refers to a Roman event that appears to have some historical basis: \*…such an enrollment had been determined on by Augustus, when at Tarracon in Spain, twenty seven years before; but he was diverted from it by some disturbances in the empire, so that it was deferred to this time, in which there was a remarkable interposition of divine providence." \*[Luke 2:1 Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that a census should be taken of the whole empire.](http://biblehub.com/luke/2-1.htm#) \*"The great classical archaeologist Sir William Ramsay, said that Luke was a “first rate historian…” \*So, why not accept his writing as historical? Also, \*_“Luke’s gospel is just the first part of a two-volume set in which Acts is the second. Colin Hemer’s massive study, The Book of Acts in the Setting of Hellenistic History details at least 84 facts in the last 16 chapters of Acts that have been confirmed by either historical or archeological research.”_ [Was There Really A Census During the Time of Caesar Augustus?](https://crossexamined.org/really-census-time-caesar-augustus/) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2018, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/98 "2018-03-25T19:53:00Z")
> [@A\_Odom](#): > > I cannot find a non-Christian reference to this “registration” (instead of a “tax”), but here is one that refers to a Roman event that appears to have some historical basis: Can we save the Birth Of Jesus for next Christmas, and focus on the OP, which is the Resurrection?😛 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2018, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/99 "2018-03-25T19:54:44Z")
> [@A\_Odom](#): > > I cannot find a non-Christian reference to this “registration” (instead of a “tax”), but here is one that refers to a Roman event that appears to have some historical basis: > \*…such an enrollment had been determined on by Augustus, when at Tarracon in Spain, twenty seven years before; but he was diverted from it by some disturbances in the empire, so that it was deferred to this time, in which there was a remarkable interposition of divine providence." > \*[Luke 2:1 Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that a census should be taken of the whole empire.](http://biblehub.com/luke/2-1.htm#) > > \*"The great classical archaeologist Sir William Ramsay, said that Luke was a “first rate historian…” \*So, why not accept his writing as historical? Also, \*_“Luke’s gospel is just the first part of a two-volume set in which Acts is the second. Colin Hemer’s massive study, The Book of Acts in the Setting of Hellenistic History details at least 84 facts in the last 16 chapters of Acts that have been confirmed by either historical or archeological research.”_ [Was There Really A Census During the Time of Caesar Augustus?](https://crossexamined.org/really-census-time-caesar-augustus/) Wiki says [“There are major difficulties in accepting Luke’s account: the census in fact took place in 6 AD, ten years after Herod’s death in 4 BC; there was no single census of the entire empire under Augustus; no Roman census required people to travel from their own homes to those of distant ancestors; and the census of Judea would not have affected Joseph and his family, living in Galilee.”](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_of_Quirinius) I’m no historian; are you? Failing that, is there a tiebreaker around? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2018, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/100 "2018-03-25T19:55:46Z")
> [@A\_Odom](#): > > I was referring to the book “The Case for Easter,” by Lee Strobel (Zondervan c. 1998, 2003). Lee Strobel was an atheist reporter for the _Chicago Tribune_, whose wife became a Christian. He decided to investigate the claims in order to disprove them. He started with the resurrection. He focused on 3 questions (1) Was Jesus really dead (at the time he was entombed)? (2) Was his tomb empty on the 1st Easter morning? (3)Did credible people encounter him after his death? His investigation changed him from a cynic to a Christian. Lee Strobel is a crusading zealot who fraudulently uses fake pseudo-science to allegedly “prove” the unerrant literal correctness of the Bible. His “investigations” are so fraught with error in order to reach his predetermined conclusions that they are worthless. He even denies biological evolution, and has zero scientific understanding of the Big Bang, which he insists “proves” Biblical Genesis to be literally correct. The many fantasies he declares “proven” about the historical Jesus could not possibly be known, and in fact the best that serious academics have been able to piece together about the real historical Jesus suggest that he probably wasn’t even a religious figure, but a political revolutionary seeking to liberate Judeau from Roman domination. The religious angle was likely some combination of political pragmatism and a tremendous amount of later embellishment. Not everyone agrees, but Strobel is certainly a crackpot and a fraud. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129.md?page=6)