# Proof of the resurrection of Jesus Christ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 24, 2018, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129 "2018-03-24T21:26:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2018, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/161 "2018-03-25T23:18:32Z")
> [@P-man](#): > > We’re on the third page and the thread has remained relatively civil. If that’s not proof there’s a God, I don’t know what is.:). For those who take the biblical narrative at face value, would it change how you live your life day to day (I’m talking about how you treat others, not praying, church attenance, ect.) if you were somehow convinced that the resurrection never occured, or even that Jesus never existed? I’ve heard some Christians say that if there is no God, then anything goes. That strikes me as demonic, because it’s saying that doing good is something you only do of there’s something in it for you (I’m this case, eternal salvation). A good question. Are people good only because they have convinced themselves there’s recognition for it? They don’t trust themselves to be good if there’s no credit? This question was approached on the final episode of the first season of Preacher, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2018, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/162 "2018-03-25T23:22:05Z")
> [@Mister\_Mills](#): > > It is a take it or leave it proposition, keep in mind that the Roman soldiers were bribed in order to keep their mouths shut. Then the story was circulated that His disciples had stolen the body. There were 16 Roman troops guarding the tomb, and his disciples stole the body? > > He rose, take it or leave it. Where does it say there were 16? Who was doing the counting, and who wrote it down? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2018, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/163 "2018-03-25T23:26:30Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > King Kong IS real. Who do you think was holding Fey Wray in the movie? A 50 foot guy in a monkey suit? Well, Genesis 6:4 _does_ prove the existence of giants, so… ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2018, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/164 "2018-03-25T23:30:57Z")
> [@A\_Odom](#): > > All we have are eyewitnesses to believe or not, plus the rest of the Bible as a useful reference. I think the point is that the eyewitnesses are anything but. The accounts were written by a group of people several decades after the fact, making the “witness” claim highly spurious. ---
**Author:** ![A\_Odom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b487fb/32.png) [@A\_Odom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_Odom)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2018, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/165 "2018-03-25T23:35:49Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Exactly how many ‘first hand accounts’ do we currently have for the alleged resurrection? From The Case for Easter: The following witnessed the post-resurrection appearances of Jesus per 1 Corinthians 15:5-8: Peter and then the other disciples (12), 500 of the “brothers” at the same time, James (Jesus’ brother I believe) “and all of the apostles,” and finally to Paul. I am not sure if “the apostles” just means the disciples, or others. This is one person’s (Paul) account of the numbers, written between AD 32 to 57, depending on your reference. The passage was a creed spoken in most gatherings of believers of the Church , which would have been “fact-checked” by other persons (Peter and the disciples). One of the early Jewish New Testament scholars, Pinchas Lapide, said evidence in the creed spoken is so strong that it “may be considered a statement of eyewitnesses.” In addition, Jesus appeared to approximately 70 persons (some repeats) on 6 or so other occasions, per other references in the Gospels. As said before, more modern attorneys have conducted a legal analysis of the accounts, incl. Sir Edmond Clarke who wrote, “To me the evidence is conclusive … I accept the gospel evidence as the evidence of truthful men to facts they were able to substantiate.” ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2018, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/166 "2018-03-25T23:41:27Z")
> [@A\_Odom](#): > > From The Case for Easter: The following witnessed the post-resurrection appearances of Jesus per 1 Corinthians 15:5-8: Peter and then the other disciples (12), 500 of the “brothers” at the same time, James (Jesus’ brother I believe) “and all of the apostles,” and finally to Paul. I am not sure if “the apostles” just means the disciples, or others. This is one person’s (Paul) account of the numbers, written between AD 32 to 57, depending on your reference. The passage was a creed spoken in most gatherings of believers of the Church , which would have been “fact-checked” by other persons (Peter and the disciples). One of the early Jewish New Testament scholars, Pinchas Lapide, said evidence in the creed spoken is so strong that it “may be considered a statement of eyewitnesses.” Yes, and chapter 9 of _The Hobbit_ states that a great many men witnessed Bard of Dale shoot the arrow that struck Smaug the dragon in its underbelly and killed it, so by your logic we must conclude that the Battle of Five Armies was a historical event and that dragons are real. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2018, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/167 "2018-03-25T23:41:53Z")
> [@A\_Odom](#): > > From The Case for Easter: The following witnessed the post-resurrection appearances of Jesus per 1 Corinthians 15:5-8: Peter and then the other disciples (12), 500 of the “brothers” at the same time, James (Jesus’ brother I believe) “and all of the apostles,” and finally to Paul. I am not sure if “the apostles” just means the disciples, or others. This is one person’s (Paul) account of the numbers, written between AD 32 to 57, depending on your reference. The passage was a creed spoken in most gatherings of believers of the Church , which would have been “fact-checked” by other persons (Peter and the disciples). One of the early Jewish New Testament scholars, Pinchas Lapide, said evidence in the creed spoken is so strong that it “may be considered a statement of eyewitnesses.” > > In addition, Jesus appeared to approximately 70 persons (some repeats) on 6 or so other occasions, per other references in the Gospels. > > As said before, more modern attorneys have conducted a legal analysis of the accounts, incl. Sir Edmond Clarke who wrote, “To me the evidence is conclusive … I accept the gospel evidence as the evidence of truthful men to facts they were able to substantiate.” Even supposing this is accurate (which I’m quite skeptical of), it’s still far more likely that there is a non-supernatural explanation than a supernatural explanation. Jesus’s death could have been faked, a convincing double could have substituted after his death, the witnesses could have been lying, or some other mundane explanation, all of which would fit the facts without requiring magic or supernatural events. The same goes for any specific claim of supernatural events. Perhaps supernatural events actually occur sometimes. But there are tons and tons of claims of supernatural events by people around the world. The vast majority, if not all, are almost certainly a combination of deliberate deception, human error, or otherwise mundane explanations. Thus the likelihood of a mundane explanation for the text of the gospels is far greater than a supernatural explanation requiring the intervention of a deity. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2018, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/168 "2018-03-25T23:42:28Z")
Strobel? :rolleyes: Strobel! :dubious: _The Case for Easter_, well, I guessed the author (don’t be sleeping when ya should be posting!), but not which book. If there was a “god” surely it’d send us apologists with better arguments! (Strobel would have a hard time convincing me that water was wet.) CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![A\_Odom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b487fb/32.png) [@A\_Odom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_Odom)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2018, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/169 "2018-03-25T23:46:07Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Again, who cares _that_ folks believe something? > > What’s interesting is _why_ they believe it. You would have to ask them, but as a minimum I am sure they believe that Jesus is the Messiah based on what the old testament says in pointing to Jesus and the new testament account of Jesus’ life and statements. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2018, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/170 "2018-03-25T23:47:24Z")
> [@A\_Odom](#): > > From The Case for Easter: The following witnessed the post-resurrection appearances of Jesus {…} 500 of the “brothers” {…} No, there is a claim that “500 of the ‘brothers’” witnessed something . . where are the statements of these 500? CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2018, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/171 "2018-03-25T23:48:45Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > King Kong IS real. Who do you think was holding Fey Wray in the movie? A 50 foot guy in a monkey suit? Wait a minute. MY scripture says it was Jessica Lange. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2018, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/172 "2018-03-25T23:50:59Z")
> [@A\_Odom](#): > > You would have to ask them, but as a minimum I am sure they believe that Jesus is the Messiah based on what the old testament says in pointing to Jesus and the new testament account of Jesus’ life and statements. Well, sure. But if _I’ve already read that stuff,_ and I didn’t find it to be a convincing case for Christianity back when, then why the heck would I get won over if such folks (a) point at that same stuff and (b) loudly announce that it won them over? ---
**Author:** ![A\_Odom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b487fb/32.png) [@A\_Odom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_Odom)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/173 "2018-03-26T00:02:00Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Strobel? :rolleyes: Strobel! :dubious: > > _The Case for Easter_, well, I guessed the author (don’t be sleeping when ya should be posting!), but not which book. > > If there was a “god” surely it’d send us apologists with better arguments! > (Strobel would have a hard time convincing me that water was wet.) > > CMC fnord! God could use more Billy Graham’s, for sure. Someone made up a story about what the angels said when Jesus ascended into heaven: The angels asked Jesus who would take his place to spread the work of God. Jesus replied, “Well, I left my 11 disciples to build my Church.” The angels replied, “but they are just men, and they only followed you for 3 years. How can they take your place?” Jesus replied, “They have to. They are all I have.” I believe each follower of Jesus should do what he can to spread the same message of Jesus. It was not left originally to seminary-trained men and women, and the job still isn’t limited to them. So, Lee Strobel is doing what he can, I believe. Good for him. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/174 "2018-03-26T00:05:16Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > If Adam and Eve were metaphorical rather than historical, then there is no redemption narrative, because there is no original sin. No, you have to extend the metaphor. Eating the forbidden fruit symbolizes mankind discovering morality. Before eating the fruit of the tree of _knowledge of good and evil_, we could not sin, because we did not understand right vs. wrong. Once we did have that knowledge, we could sin, because we would know that it was wrong to do that. And humans are imperfect creations, so you can count on us to do that. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/175 "2018-03-26T00:06:49Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Even supposing this is accurate (which I’m quite skeptical of), it’s still far more likely that there is a non-supernatural explanation than a supernatural explanation. Jesus’s death could have been faked, a convincing double could have substituted after his death, the witnesses could have been lying, or some other mundane explanation, all of which would fit the facts without requiring magic or supernatural events. > > The same goes for any specific claim of supernatural events. Perhaps supernatural events actually occur sometimes. But there are tons and tons of claims of supernatural events by people around the world. The vast majority, if not all, are almost certainly a combination of deliberate deception, human error, or otherwise mundane explanations. Thus the likelihood of a mundane explanation for the text of the gospels is far greater than a supernatural explanation requiring the intervention of a deity. Maybe the writers were sitting around and postulated: how many people did the Romans crucify? 10,000? What is there was this one guy who didn’t die but came back to life instead. Do you think people would believe it? Just for the sake of argument? And—get this—this one guy turns out to be the Messiah. Wouldn’t that be the greatest story ever told? ---
**Author:** ![A\_Odom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b487fb/32.png) [@A\_Odom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_Odom)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/176 "2018-03-26T00:09:04Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > No, there is a claim that “500 of the ‘brothers’” witnessed something . . where are the statements of these 500? > > CMC fnord! Study Bible The Resurrection of Christ …(5) and that He appeared to Cephas and then to the Twelve. (6) After that, He appeared to more than five hundred brothers at once, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. (7)Then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles.… 1 Corinthians 15: 5-7 ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/177 "2018-03-26T00:09:35Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > No, you have to extend the metaphor. Eating the forbidden fruit symbolizes mankind discovering morality. Before eating the fruit of the tree of _knowledge of good and evil_, we could not sin, because we did not understand right vs. wrong. Once we did have that knowledge, we could sin, because we would know that it was wrong to do that. And humans are imperfect creations, so you can count on us to do that. That’s all well and good, but Original Sin as defined by the Catholic Church refers specifically to that act of defiance in the Garden of Eden. The Catholic Church also looks at the Adam and Eve story as metaphor, meaning there was no actual serpent or tree or Adam or Eve. You can figure out the rest. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/178 "2018-03-26T00:15:29Z")
> [@A\_Odom](#): > > Study Bible > The Resurrection of Christ > …(5) and that He appeared to Cephas and then to the Twelve. (6) After that, He appeared to more than five hundred brothers at once, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. (7)Then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles.… > > 1 Corinthians 15: 5-7 I’m not sure you get it. What you have here isn’t “hundreds of eyewitness statements”. You have _one_ secondhand account that _claims_ there were hundreds of eyewitnesses. _Harry Potter and the Sorcerer’s Stone_ says that all of Hogwarts saw Harry catch the Golden Snitch in his first quiddich match, but that doesn’t comprise hundreds of eyewitness statements either. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/179 "2018-03-26T00:32:57Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I’m not sure you get it. What you have here isn’t “hundreds of eyewitness statements”. You have _one_ secondhand account that _claims_ there were hundreds of eyewitnesses. Secondhand _at best_. Paul didn’t talk to the 500 himself, relying on oral accounts of others. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2018, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129/180 "2018-03-26T00:36:01Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **P-man** : > > Maybe it’s just me, but I’d prefer that others believe in loving one’s neighbor as oneself than in a literal resurrection. There are Christians who believe that the resurrection is metaphorical, not a historical event. I count myself among this number. Similarly, I’ve observed before that you can tell a lot more about someone’s religion from what they pray for, than whom they pray to. A Christian praying for world peace is a lot closer to a Muslim, Hindu, or Buddhist praying for world peace, than he is to a Christian praying for his team to win the Superbowl. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-of-the-resurrection-of-jesus-christ/811129.md?page=10)