Proof of the resurrection of Jesus Christ?

[QuickSilver]

@P-man

There are people who were Christian and converted to Judaism as well. People convert every day.

*You *know that and I know that. But what point is A Odom making?

[Mister_Mills]

@A_Odom

Are there historical documents with personal accounts, reports, or other data to support the resurrection of Jesus Christ? If so, would this not be strong evidence of who he says that he is?

It is a take it or leave it proposition, keep in mind that the Roman soldiers were bribed in order to keep their mouths shut. Then the story was circulated that His disciples had stolen the body. There were 16 Roman troops guarding the tomb, and his disciples stole the body?
He rose, take it or leave it.

[QuickSilver]

@A_Odom

Good question. Romans 11:17-24 seems to say that Jews who do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah are cut-off from the “olive tree” of Israel, and that only the Jews and Gentiles who believe in Jesus as Messiah are part of God’s “Israel.” The first Christians were predominantly Jews, of course, which were called the “remnant.” These Jews definitely received salvation by grace.

So they were grand-fathered in… What’s the cut-off date?

[simster]

@A_Odom

Concerning anonymous conversions I mentioned, yes - you would have no way to confirm what I said. But maybe this will help - I met a Messianic Jew (don’t remember his name) who wrote Christian books and I asked him if he knew the Messianic Jewish writer Joel Rosenberg, he replied that they were friends. So, I will refer you to Rosenberg’s story. He has written fiction and non-fiction, including his book Spiritual Journey

Wiki says: “Rosenberg was born in 1967 near Rochester, New York. He has stated that his father is of Jewish descent and his mother was born into a Methodist family of English descent.[6][7] His parents were agnostic and became born-again Christians when he was a child in 1973.[8] At the age of 17, he became a born-again Christian and now identifies as a Jewish believer in Jesus.”

I don’t care how many people believe or convert to (or away) from it - none of that equates to ‘proof’ or ‘evidence’ of this alleged resurrection of this alleged ‘son of god’.

When come back - bring actual evidence.

[The_Other_Waldo_Pepper]

@Mister_Mills

It is a take it or leave it proposition, keep in mind that the Roman soldiers were bribed in order to keep their mouths shut. Then the story was circulated that His disciples had stolen the body. There were 16 Roman troops guarding the tomb, and his disciples stole the body?
He rose, take it or leave it.

Let me see if I have this straight: the one thing you believe about that these guards is that they — could totally be bribed? Because I can explain a whole bunch of stuff about guards, if I have to grant that they’re of the Could Totally Be Bribed type.

(But, wait: if those guards were bribed to keep their mouths shut, who talked so that we know they were bribed to keep their mouths shut?)

[A_Odom]

@Morgenstern

They make the same “conversion” claim about Josh McDowell and his Evidence that Demands a Verdict. He starts out a non-believer and while he’s researching his book, he becomes convinced of Jesus and becomes a Christian.

I see a flaw in that argument. What would a non-believer write about that would sell to other non-believers who otherwise don’t give a shit? So he decide to market his books to Christians, because that’s where the money is. If you’re going to write a book, write one that will at least sell.

I have read some of McDowell’s books and I find them to be absolutely scriptural, and I approach all sources in a discerning manner. That is what is important, ultimately. As a result, I do not have any problem with has conversion account, which is probably truth-based in my opinion.

C. S. Lewis is another famous Christian who was an atheist who wiki says,
He became an atheist at age 15, though he later described his young self as being paradoxically “angry with God for not existing”…(He was) influenced by arguments with his Oxford colleague and Christian friend J. R. R. Tolkien, whom he seems to have met for the first time on 11 May 1926, and the book The Everlasting Man by G. K. Chesterton. Lewis vigorously resisted conversion, noting that he was brought into Christianity like a prodigal, “kicking, struggling, resentful, and darting his eyes in every direction for a chance to escape”

[P-man]

@The_Other_Waldo_Pepper

Let me see if I have this straight: the one thing you believe about that these guards is that they — could totally be bribed? Because I can explain a whole bunch of stuff about guards, if I have to grant that they’re of the Could Totally Be Bribed type.

(But, wait: if those guards were bribed to keep their mouths shut, who talked so that we know they were bribed to keep their mouths shut?)

This was written decades after the actual event. Maybe “anonymous sources” go back further than we thought.

[Riemann]

So, there is all this super-compelling evidence. But rather than show you the actual evidence, I’ll tell you about this guy who was really skeptical (he was a Professor of Skepticism at Oxford University) and he was convinced by the evidence that I’m not showing you! Amazing, eh?

Do Christians proceed in this way in any other aspect of their lives? I mean, when you’re buying a house, do you go and look at it? Or do you hire a guy who really hates houses, and get him to go and check it out for you?

[simster]

@A_Odom

I have read some of McDowell’s books and I find them to be absolutely scriptural, and I approach all sources in a discerning manner. That is what is important, ultimately. As a result, I do not have any problem with has conversion account, which is probably truth-based in my opinion.

C. S. Lewis is another famous Christian who was an atheist who wiki says,
He became an atheist at age 15, though he later described his young self as being paradoxically “angry with God for not existing”…(He was) influenced by arguments with his Oxford colleague and Christian friend J. R. R. Tolkien, whom he seems to have met for the first time on 11 May 1926, and the book The Everlasting Man by G. K. Chesterton. Lewis vigorously resisted conversion, noting that he was brought into Christianity like a prodigal, “kicking, struggling, resentful, and darting his eyes in every direction for a chance to escape”

Who the fuck cares? This is not proof or evidence of this alleged resurection.

When you figure that out - then you’ll be able to claim that you ‘approach all sources in a discerning manner’.

[A_Odom]

@QuickSilver

So they were grand-fathered in… What’s the cut-off date?

You may mean that as humor - they were part of the “remnant” of God’s nation, per Romans, due to their belief in Jesus as the Messiah, which was in the earlier part of the post you quoted.

There is no grandfather clause. Your grandfather could have been Billy Graham, but what matters is, “Who is Jesus, to you?”

[The_Other_Waldo_Pepper]

@A_Odom

There is no grandfather clause. Your grandfather could have been Billy Graham, but what matters is, “Who is Jesus, to you?”

Someone we were warned against by Deuteronomy 13. Why?

[QuickSilver]

@A_Odom

I have read some of McDowell’s books and I find them to be absolutely scriptural, and I approach all sources in a discerning manner. That is what is important, ultimately. As a result, I do not have any problem with has conversion account, which is probably truth-based in my opinion.

So you seek out anecdotal “evidence” that supports your predisposition and call that discerning?

[Siam_Sam]

@iiandyiiii

Even a contemporary written record that Jesus was seen to rise from the dead would be proof for nothing more than someone at the time wrote that Jesus was seen to rise from the dead. It’s logically far more likely that any such writer making an exceptional supernatural claim was lying, deceived, or otherwise mistaken than it is that the writer is accurately relating facts.

Indeed. I could write an account today of my having seen a lady sawed in half at a magician’s show, but I would no one a couple thousand years from now would find it and think that a lady actually had survived being sawed in half for real.

[A_Odom]

@Riemann

So, there is all this super-compelling evidence. But rather than show you the actual evidence, I’ll tell you about this guy who was really skeptical (he was a Professor of Skepticism at Oxford University) and he was convinced by the evidence that I’m not showing you! Amazing, eh?

Do Christians proceed in this way in any other aspect of their lives? I mean, when you’re buying a house, do you go and look at it? Or do you hire a guy who really hates houses, and get him to go and check it out for you?

I referenced a book where you could start, The Case for Easter, by Lee Strobel.

[P-man]

@simster

Who the fuck cares? This is not proof or evidence of this alleged resurection.

When you figure that out - then you’ll be able to claim that you ‘approach all sources in a discerning manner’.

It proves that beliefs can change over time. Of course we all knew that. I hope those who are trying to prove the resurrection is a historical event put as much effort into feeding the hungry and clothing the naked (and there are certainly plenty of Christians, as well as nonreligious folks, who do just that).

[Riemann]

@A_Odom

C. S. Lewis is another famous Christian…

C.S.Lewis the man responsible for the most transparently stupid argument for the divinity of Jesus ever devised.

Lewis's trilemma

[Fear_Itself]

@A_Odom

Good question. Romans 11:17-24 seems to say that Jews who do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah are cut-off from the “olive tree” of Israel, and that only the Jews and Gentiles who believe in Jesus as Messiah are part of God’s “Israel.” The first Christians were predominantly Jews, of course, which were called the “remnant.” These Jews definitely received salvation by grace.

So your example of the two Jews who were born again does not mean they did so because the evidence was strong.

[QuickSilver]

@A_Odom

There is no grandfather clause. Your grandfather could have been Billy Graham, but what matters is, “Who is Jesus, to you?”

A reform rabbi and a very naughty boy.

[Riemann]

@A_Odom

I referenced a book where you could start, The Case for Easter, by Lee Strobel.

And your main motivation for citing the book was apparently to emphasize just how skeptical the author was before he looked at all of this wonderful evidence.

Why not just cite the evidence?

[simster]

@Riemann

And your main motivation for citing the book was apparently to emphasize just how skeptical the author was before he looked at all of this wonderful evidence.

Why not just cite the evidence?

Because he has none -

(which of course, is the very definition of what ‘faith’ is - if he had evidence, he wouldn’t need ‘faith’)