# Proof That God Exists: An Open Debate For The Existence of God **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 31, 2016, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578 "2016-08-31T16:30:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2016, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/221 "2016-09-04T05:31:54Z")
OP: Better minds than yours or mine have been debating the existence of a supreme being for millennia. Not one of those minds has come up with a single shred of evidence for said existence. The odds against you coming up with a “proof” are . . . astronomical. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2016, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/222 "2016-09-04T05:49:36Z")
It’s so funny to see someone proposing that logic dictates that life is too complex to have come into being by itself so it must have been created by something else that came into being by itself. You honestly can’t see the flaw in that argument? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2016, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/223 "2016-09-04T07:52:50Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > Have I got a deal for you … I like your style … I want you to **walk away** a happy person … I’ve a cousin down in The Valley and he can get top quality functions from the Eigen Republic … just off the boat … because I want to be your friend … I can get one for you wholesale … (will you sign a waiver?) … easy financing … (do you know what usery is?) … did I mention I like your style … someone like you deserves the best on the market … beer? wine? high ball? … let’s talk numbers … it’ll cost you a mere $1,200 or $1,500 … depending on when you look … > > I want to take care of you, trust me here, you’re entitled to this wave function … don’t settle for anything less … But – but – I’m trying to get you to FIX my car. If I have to walk away from here, there’s no way I’m gonna be happy. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2016, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/224 "2016-09-04T14:47:45Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > … What if we’re in God’s little toe? … [hmm, you might be onto something](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h1O7-r7Wrw) ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2016, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/225 "2016-09-04T15:21:43Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > But – but – I’m trying to get you to FIX my car. If I have to walk away from here, there’s no way I’m gonna be happy. Truth in advertising … SDMB is kinda sensitive about that … ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2016, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/226 "2016-09-04T16:23:07Z")
You’re all over the map. First you’re trying out the old uncaused first cause argument, then you talk about how you were mad at God, then you go straight into Creationism. What’s your focus here? To address your main points, an uncaused first cause isn’t much like Jesus. It just says that our Universe exists, and labels the cause of the existence of the Universe “God”. But we know nothing about why our Universe exists, and naming the cause of that existence “God” is, as you know, a sneaky attempt to ascribe personhood to what could very well be impersonal forces. Since we have no idea why the Universe exists giving the cause of the universe a name besides “the cause of the Universe” assumes what it is trying to prove. As for your talk about how you hated God after your mother died, that’s a pretty tough story. But you should know that most atheists don’t hate God, we just don’t think that there’s any evidence that a being that would be justified in called “God” exists. I mean, maybe God exists, but why should I think so? I don’t feel justified in calling the Universe “God”, or an uncaused first cause “God” or the sum total of the physical laws of the Universe “God”, or the creator of the human species “God”. I’m an atheist because I either don’t believe those things exist, or I don’t believe they can justly be called “God”. And I’m not mad at God for all the evil in the world, any more than I’m mad at Darth Vader for blowing up Princess Leia’s planet, or mad hurricane Katrina. There’s no point in getting angry at impersonal forces or fictional characters. Also there’s no point in getting angry at people who did bad things that are now dead, like Genghis Khan. Yeah, he was a horrible person who caused millions of deaths. But what’s the point of getting mad at Genghis Khan? He’s been dead for hundreds of years. And what’s the point of getting angry at other jerks, like Donald Trump? He’s alive, and doing evil in the world…but what’s the point of being angry at him? God didn’t give your mother cancer. She got cancer because something damaged the DNA in one of her cells, and that caused the cell to divide uncontrollably. Your mother wasn’t killed by a personal being, she was killed by an impersonal force. Anger at an impersonal force is wrongheaded. As for Creationism…well I hardly know where to begin. Yeah, it’s extremely unlikely that a bunch of carbon and hydrogen and oxygen atoms would spontaneously combine into a human being at random. And that’s why I don’t think human beings arose at random. Evolution is not random. But are we even talking about evolution, or are we talking about the origin of life? Are you incapable of believing that the first living cell arose by impersonal forces billions of years ago? Or are you arguing for Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden? ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2016, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/227 "2016-09-04T17:34:58Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It’s so funny to see someone proposing that logic dictates that life is too complex to have come into being by itself so it must have been created by something else that came into being by itself. You honestly can’t see the flaw in that argument? Yep. As somebody else already posted in this thread, “It’s Creators all the way down.” ---
**Author:** ![Patch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a183cd/32.png) [@Patch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patch)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2016, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/228 "2016-09-04T17:58:15Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It’s so funny to see someone proposing that logic dictates that life is too complex to have come into being by itself so it must have been created by something else that came into being by itself. You honestly can’t see the flaw in that argument? If we grant the op’s premise that there has to be an all powerful being at the beginning, why does that mean it’s our creator? Maybe that being spawned more beings (perhaps through mitosis, or maybe it was created pregnant, akin to a tribble), who spawned more beings, and so on and so on, and after billions of generations before one of those beings died it created this universe (or perhaps just this little corner of the universe that was created by another being). Because there’s simply so much to do as an all-powerful being none of the others noticed as they’re just too busy, and as a consequence we’ve been adrift in the cosmos for billions of years all on our own and life arose through abiogenesis, with evolution leading us to where we are today. Looking forward to the op explaining why this has to be discounted in favor of his religion and it’s single creator. Aw, who am I kidding. I don’t expect him to do anything but post more walls of text that ignore all the objections put forth. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2016, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/229 "2016-09-04T18:27:17Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > (What if we’re in God’s little toe? Haven’t seen anything like that. Now, I have seen people on Buddha’s toe: [![](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-RiIzSGwtMCY/T4pxgx9vEJI/AAAAAAAACwg/ht6nC-J6DJs/s1600/DSC03612.jpg) ](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-RiIzSGwtMCY/T4pxgx9vEJI/AAAAAAAACwg/ht6nC-J6DJs/s1600/DSC03612.jpg) From: The Spring Temple giant Buddha statue [http://www.nevworldwonders.com/2012/04/day-214-pingdingshan-and-spring-temple.html](http://www.nevworldwonders.com/2012/04/day-214-pingdingshan-and-spring-temple.html) ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2016, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/230 "2016-09-04T19:17:42Z")
> [@Patch](#): > > … there’s simply so much to do as an all-powerful being none of the others noticed as they’re just too busy, and as a consequence we’ve been adrift in the cosmos for billions of years all on our own and life arose through abiogenesis, with evolution leading us to where we are today.… God is like a pirate/plagiarist, taking credit for something it just stumbled across? Of course, some of us are of the opinion that the natural order of things led nothing to become something, because _it had to_, so this god critter would be stealing credit from nothing. ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2016, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/231 "2016-09-04T20:29:37Z")
> [@Patch](#): > > Aw, who am I kidding. I don’t expect him to do anything but post more walls of text that ignore all the objections put forth. Maybe. I predict one or two more missives from him/her, and then gone. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2016, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/232 "2016-09-04T20:35:55Z")
> [@TreacherousCretin](#): > > Maybe. I predict one or two more missives from him/her, and then gone. Considering the OP has already laid out their lame excuse to never come back … I’ll go ahead and predict they’ll … you know … never come back … ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2016, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/233 "2016-09-04T21:54:30Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > Considering the OP has already laid out their lame excuse to never come back … I’ll go ahead and predict they’ll … you know … never come back … Don’t taunt. You may be right, but it’s undignified to taunt. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2016, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/234 "2016-09-04T22:06:57Z")
Everybody should just stop posting in the thread – not like we had written anything original anyway – let it sink and see if it pops up again by the end of the week or just quietly dies. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2016, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/235 "2016-09-05T05:54:20Z")
Bump for Jesus! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2016, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/236 "2016-09-05T13:57:31Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It’s so funny to see someone proposing that logic dictates that life is too complex to have come into being by itself so it must have been created by something else that came into being by itself. You honestly can’t see the flaw in that argument? But this God goes to 11! ---
**Author:** ![Sputnikkk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Sputnikkk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sputnikkk)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/237 "2016-09-06T08:50:35Z")
> [@Duke\_of\_Rat](#): > > The Bible is the word of God. > > It says that Noah took 2 of each animal and seven pairs of each bird. There are almost 10,000 bird species and some 5,000 mammals. So we’re up to 140,000 birds and 10,000 mammals on the ark, we’ll leave the reptiles and insects out for now. > > OK, let’s have a look at the law of math, shall we? The bible actually seems counter productive to proving the existence of God, the more you read it, the more ridiculous it becomes. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/238 "2016-09-06T13:56:32Z")
> [@Jeduraiya](#): > > **Firstly** , I do not consider myself a highly educated man. I have only a high school education to go on, as I never attended college. I have never entered a classroom on philosophy or religion, and I am not familiar with some of the terminology used by some of the members. I have no idea what “Gödel’s Impossibility Theorem” is. I have never heard of the word Aristotelian, yet alone have a basis of knowledge as to what it is. Your example that 2+2=4 is a poor one since it doesn’t address attack the fundamental ideas in math. A better question would be “Is the Axiom of Choice always true?” Godel’s Impossibility Theorem counters your assumption that the laws of mathematics are consistent in that any complete axiomonic system will have statement that can neither be proven true or false. As for the term “Aristotelian”, it is the form of logic that the Western world uses. However there are many types of logic out there which use different rules. Now I am not a quantum physicist so this may be wrong but there are particles that simultaneously exist and do not exist. This violates Aristotle’s Rule of the Excluded Middle but I believe does not violate the rules of Fuzzy Logic. So these two put put together would deny your antecedent(s) and render you chain of reasoning invalid. ---
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/239 "2016-09-06T14:28:46Z")
My last reply was a bit snarky, and I know I should probably let this thread die, but I thought this was useful. [Crash Course Philosophy](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8dPuuaLjXtNgK6MZucdYldNkMybYIHKR) is a YouTube channel that covers the major areas of philosophy at a high school level. It’s very accessible, and several of the episodes cover the arguments for and against the existence of a god, without taking a position either way. I think it’s a useful series for anyone that is just starting to consider these kinds of questions. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/240 "2016-09-06T14:49:59Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Hi! I am Schrodinger’s cat. Oh, you remember, the one that is in the box to demonstrate quantum probabilities, and I am alive and dead rather than one or the other, although each probability is a little fuzzy, but I’m a cat and I’m a little fuzzy anyway…yeah, I knew you’d remember! > > So, let’s go about this God thing as the logicians do. I want you to conceive of the CAT ALMIGHTY. The Cat such that nothing more noble or good or powerful or perfect can exist, OK? Yes, you have such a Cat in mind, do you? > > Oh no you don’t! You are still conceiving of such a divine Cat as a _hypothetical_ Cat, and I am sitting here and conceiving, in betweenst licking my fur, of such a divine Cat as a REAL, GENUINELY EXISTENT Cat, which is a shade more noble and a bit better and definitely more powerful and perfect where your hypothetical “Cat” is less than so, so you are going to have to do a bit better than that… > > Ah, NOW you have it! So you BELIEVE! Come, and bring with you some cheddar cheese and lasagna and tuna fish, and make your offering in this bowl over here! \ > > originally posted Sat, Sep 6, 1997 on the AOL board Originally posted by [Anselm of Canterbury](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontological_argument) in 1078 CE. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578.md?page=13)