# Proof That God Exists: An Open Debate For The Existence of God **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 31, 2016, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578 "2016-08-31T16:30:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/321 "2016-09-12T18:10:02Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > Hey, if you guys want to test out prayer, and make believers out of us atheists, just have god regrow an amputee’s limb. Of all the sick, cancerous, disease-ridden people he’s healed in the past, apparently amputee’s piss him off so much he’s never bothered to heal one in the history of mankind. But to make it fair, we have a separate amputee and pray-er for every known god, just to make sure the right one gets the credit when/if it is due. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/322 "2016-09-12T20:09:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > But to make it fair, we have a separate amputee and pray-er for every known god, just to make sure the right one gets the credit when/if it is due. Bad idea. You might miss one. Can you imagine praying to just about every god there is and missing the one that’s actually in charge of whatever you’re praying about? He is going to be one angry god. That’s when it rains for 40 days and 40 nights despite the forecast predicting clear skies, and things get smitten all over the place and turned into pillars of salt and such. Competition and jealousies between gods is not something you want to be caught in the middle of – it’s worse than a bunch of teenage girls. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/323 "2016-09-12T20:21:47Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Bad idea. You might miss one. Can you imagine praying to just about every god there is and missing the one that’s actually in charge of whatever you’re praying about? He is going to be one angry god. That’s when it rains for 40 days and 40 nights despite the forecast predicting clear skies, and things get smitten all over the place and turned into pillars of salt and such. Competition and jealousies between gods is not something you want to be caught in the middle of – it’s worse than a bunch of teenage girls. Even worse, say that multiple gods exist and you pray to two of them who respond. Then you have something completely different, a person with three limbs. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/324 "2016-09-12T20:24:49Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > Please, what experiment can we conduct to _disprove_ the existence of dark matter? You of all people should know where I’m going with this. Dark matter is the placeholder for the thing that is causing the gravitational effects we see. Unlike god, it has measurable impact on the world. You need to find someone who is going to make a firm hypothesis on dark matter to disprove it. Also unlike God, this hypothesis can’t include the words “too mysterious to explain” or “unknowable.” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/325 "2016-09-12T21:13:05Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Even worse, say that multiple gods exist and you pray to two of them who respond. Then you have something completely different, a person with three limbs. That’s why I stipulated that there be one amputee assigned to each god/goddess/godthing. In case of multiple winners, we hold a speed trial. edited to add: If we missed out on any god and he/she/it feels slighted, she/he/it is welcome to provide his/her/it’s own amputee and pray-er for the competition. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/326 "2016-09-12T21:30:50Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Even worse, say that multiple gods exist and you pray to two of them who respond. Then you have something completely different, a person with three limbs. You need a carefully crafted prayer with (verbal) fine print: Thank you, god, if in your wisdom and compassion you should grant my prayer, and please note the following addendum provided by my spiritual adviser. This prayer request is null and void in the event that one or more body parts (hereinafter “the limb”) have already been restored, re-animated, or otherwise repaired and made good by one or more other gods or powers, in whole or in part, if so deemed by the beneficiary of the restored limb and demonstrated by such actions, or their substantial equivalents, as jumping up and down and loudly screaming “I’m cured, I’m cured, oh thank god, I’m whole again!”. In such an event the god being prayed to, if disposed to grant the prayer, shall refrain from doing so and may under no circumstances bestow any extra or non-standard limbs, and shall moreover refrain from any attempt in any other way, manner, or means whatsoever to remediate the cause of action therein demanded, and shall return peaceably to the heavens from whence he, she, or it (you should pardon the expression) came, and shall have no claim for compensatory damages nor any entitlement to smite anyone. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2016, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/327 "2016-09-12T22:12:24Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > Hey, if you guys want to test out prayer, and make believers out of us atheists, just have god regrow an amputee’s limb. Of all the sick, cancerous, disease-ridden people he’s healed in the past, apparently amputee’s piss him off so much he’s never bothered to heal one in the history of mankind. Jesus put that Roman soldier’s ear back on. I think that should count! ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2016, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/328 "2016-09-13T00:12:38Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Jesus put that Roman soldier’s ear back on. I think that should count! It should count for as much as the walking on water or raising Lazarus from the dead anyway. My favorite Lazarus depiction is from The Last Temptation of Christ, where Lazarus is asked what death was like compared to life and he says he couldn’t really tell the difference. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2016, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/329 "2016-09-13T00:12:41Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Jesus put that Roman soldier’s ear back on. I think that should count! Super tiny picayune nitpick, that wasn’t a Roman soldier, but one of the High Priest’s guardsmen. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2016, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/330 "2016-09-13T00:20:55Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > You need a carefully crafted prayer with (verbal) fine print: > > Thank you, god, if in your wisdom and compassion you should grant my prayer, and please note the following addendum provided by my spiritual adviser. > > This prayer request is null and void in the event that one or more body parts (hereinafter “the limb”) have already been restored, re-animated, or otherwise repaired and made good by one or more other gods or powers, in whole or in part, if so deemed by the beneficiary of the restored limb and demonstrated by such actions, or their substantial equivalents, as jumping up and down and loudly screaming “I’m cured, I’m cured, oh thank god, I’m whole again!”. In such an event the god being prayed to, if disposed to grant the prayer, shall refrain from doing so and may under no circumstances bestow any extra or non-standard limbs, and shall moreover refrain from any attempt in any other way, manner, or means whatsoever to remediate the cause of action therein demanded, and shall return peaceably to the heavens from whence he, she, or it (you should pardon the expression) came, and shall have no claim for compensatory damages nor any entitlement to smite anyone. Thank God for lawyers. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2016, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/331 "2016-09-13T00:36:02Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Dark matter is the placeholder for the thing that is causing the gravitational effects we see. Unlike god, it has measurable impact on the world. You need to find someone who is going to make a firm hypothesis on dark matter to disprove it. Also unlike God, this hypothesis can’t include the words “too mysterious to explain” or “unknowable.” Though Dark Matter is not exactly a fiction. It bears many of the same hallmarks of fiction as God or Supreme Life Force do. Perhaps Dark Matter is simply glorified wishful thinking on the part of astronomers. Perhaps Dark Matter is another name for God. The scientist cannot insist on physical proof from the religious crowd and then allow a vague concept like Dark Matter to exist without the same scrutiny. It’s more about hypocrisy than metaphysics. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2016, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/332 "2016-09-13T00:45:39Z")
What is this I don’t even ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2016, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/333 "2016-09-13T01:09:58Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > Though Dark Matter is not exactly a fiction. It bears many of the same hallmarks of fiction as God or Supreme Life Force do. Perhaps Dark Matter is simply glorified wishful thinking on the part of astronomers. Perhaps Dark Matter is another name for God. The scientist cannot insist on physical proof from the religious crowd and then allow a vague concept like Dark Matter to exist without the same scrutiny. It’s more about hypocrisy than metaphysics. > Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Light bends in a manner consistent with GR, around a collection of mass which interacts weakly, if at all, with the previously mentioned light. So yeah God. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Patch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a183cd/32.png) [@Patch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patch)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2016, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/334 "2016-09-13T01:51:23Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > Though Dark Matter is not exactly a fiction. It bears many of the same hallmarks of fiction as God or Supreme Life Force do. Perhaps Dark Matter is simply glorified wishful thinking on the part of astronomers. Perhaps Dark Matter is another name for God. The scientist cannot insist on physical proof from the religious crowd and then allow a vague concept like Dark Matter to exist without the same scrutiny. It’s more about hypocrisy than metaphysics. > Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk This is the police. Put down the bong and step away from the keyboard with your hands above your head. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2016, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/335 "2016-09-13T01:54:07Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > Though Dark Matter is not exactly a fiction. It bears many of the same hallmarks of fiction as God or Supreme Life Force do. Perhaps Dark Matter is simply glorified wishful thinking on the part of astronomers. Perhaps Dark Matter is another name for God. The scientist cannot insist on physical proof from the religious crowd and then allow a vague concept like Dark Matter to exist without the same scrutiny. It’s more about hypocrisy than metaphysics. As I understand it, “dark matter” is what we say when we observe effects that would make perfect sense if there was some matter right there – but, to our surprise, we can’t see any matter there: not in the visible-light spectrum; and not anywhere else along the electromagnetic spectrum. So we therefore deduce the existence of stuff that’s significantly similar to the matter we can _directly_ detect. As I understand it, “god” is what we say when – what? We observe events that make perfect sense _without_ us postulating an entity that can’t be directly observed, but for some reason we assume that invisible entity is there anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2016, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/336 "2016-09-13T02:06:57Z")
So if there’s something we don’t 100% understand, we should just chalk it up to God? Wonder why nobody has ever thought of that before? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2016, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/337 "2016-09-13T02:15:44Z")
Even worse, when respectable physicists suggest a possible, hypothetical, preliminary, tentative explanation for a real and observed phenomenon, someone who doesn’t comprehend science will claim it’s exactly the same as theologians discussing the properties of God. Dirac predicted the positron. Yeah, that’s just fucking EXACTLY the same as the Holy Trinity and the doctrine of the favored elect. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2016, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/338 "2016-09-13T03:22:06Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > Though Dark Matter is not exactly a fiction. It bears many of the same hallmarks of fiction as God or Supreme Life Force do. Perhaps Dark Matter is simply glorified wishful thinking on the part of astronomers. Perhaps Dark Matter is another name for God. The scientist cannot insist on physical proof from the religious crowd and then allow a vague concept like Dark Matter to exist without the same scrutiny. It’s more about hypocrisy than metaphysics. Wishful thinking? Like coming up with a hypothesis based on observations? If someone has a reasonable non-dark matter explanation, I’m sure we’d all be happy to hear it. Not to mention that no scientists are building churches to dark matter, nor think dark matter cares about our sex life. And science as a whole will abandon falsified hypotheses - unlike religion. Has there been any evidence of any god as good as that for some sort of dark matter? ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2016, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/339 "2016-09-13T05:01:45Z")
> [@Patch](#): > > This is the police. Put down the bong and step away from the keyboard with your hands above your head. That’s actually pretty funny. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2016, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/340 "2016-09-13T05:08:27Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > As I understand it, “dark matter” is what we say when we observe effects that would make perfect sense if there was some matter right there – but, to our surprise, we can’t see any matter there: not in the visible-light spectrum; and not anywhere else along the electromagnetic spectrum. So we therefore deduce the existence of stuff that’s significantly similar to the matter we can _directly_ detect. > > As I understand it, “god” is what we say when – what? We observe events that make perfect sense _without_ us postulating an entity that can’t be directly observed, but for some reason we assume that invisible entity is there anyway? We cannot see the wind, but we can certainly feel the effects of the wind, and we can indirectly see the wind blow objects all over the place in a hurricane. We cannot see gravity, but we can certainly feel the effects of gravity, whose attraction changes from celestial body to celestial body. We cannot see a singularity, but we believe we can see the effects of it. So it is with dark matter. We believe it exists because we can see its effects. So it is with God; and before you leap on me for saying that, consider that perhaps you just need to expand your concept of what God is. If it means something closer to life-force, as it does for me (all the rest is fairy tales), then God is really not that different from all of the aforementioned mysteries of the universe. We do not see life directly, yet we infer its existence based on the behaviour of those things we consider to be alive. God to me is simply that life-force. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578.md?page=18)