# Proof That God Exists: An Open Debate For The Existence of God **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 31, 2016, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578 "2016-08-31T16:30:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/61 "2016-08-31T20:01:50Z")
Hi! I am Schrodinger’s cat. Oh, you remember, the one that is in the box to demonstrate quantum probabilities, and I am alive and dead rather than one or the other, although each probability is a little fuzzy, but I’m a cat and I’m a little fuzzy anyway…yeah, I knew you’d remember! So, let’s go about this God thing as the logicians do. I want you to conceive of the CAT ALMIGHTY. The Cat such that nothing more noble or good or powerful or perfect can exist, OK? Yes, you have such a Cat in mind, do you? Oh no you don’t! You are still conceiving of such a divine Cat as a _hypothetical_ Cat, and I am sitting here and conceiving, in betweenst licking my fur, of such a divine Cat as a REAL, GENUINELY EXISTENT Cat, which is a shade more noble and a bit better and definitely more powerful and perfect where your hypothetical “Cat” is less than so, so you are going to have to do a bit better than that… Ah, NOW you have it! So you BELIEVE! Come, and bring with you some cheddar cheese and lasagna and tuna fish, and make your offering in this bowl over here! \ originally posted Sat, Sep 6, 1997 on the AOL board ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/62 "2016-08-31T20:10:04Z")
> [@](#): > > God is a CAT! A proof…[snip] One in every crowd … ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/63 "2016-08-31T20:14:49Z")
STEP ONE: LAWS OF LOGIC Which logical system are you referring to? Aristotilean? There are many forms of logic. STEP TWO: LAWS OF MATHEMATICS So you’ll address Godel’s Impossibility Theorem I presume. STEP THREE: LAWS OF SCIENCE But the laws are subject to further refinement based on experimentation. STEP FOUR: ABSOLUTE MORAL LAWS History would disagree with you. Some cultures condone the killing of female babies. Why are you so presumptuous that you are right and they are wrong. Or put another way. Many criminals justify their moral violations, perhaps best put by John Huston in Chinatown “Most people never have to face the fact that at the right time and the right place, they’re capable of anything.” So why are you right and they’re wrong? STEP FIVE: THE NATURE OF LAWS (A) No real argument with this. STEP SIX: THE NATURE OF LAWS (B) Although your chain breaks on Step 4 unless you can demonstrate there is a Absolute Moral Code independent of people’s sense of right and wrong, here it completely disintegrates. There are some really good arguments out there that Logic, Mathematics\*, Science and Morality are all social constructs and that there is nothing absolute about them. \*As crazy as the idea of maths as a social construct it, I studied that philosophy at the University of Exeter in their doctoral programme. STEP SEVEN: THE LAWS OF NATURE © See above. An argument can be made that at least one of your four pillars is always changing. STEP EIGHT: THE PROOF THAT GOD EXISTS IS THAT WITHOUT HIM YOU COULDN’T PROVE ANYTHING Why not? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/64 "2016-08-31T20:15:22Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > One in every crowd … …and one (possibly) in every box. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/65 "2016-08-31T20:19:05Z")
> [@](#): > > God is a CAT! A proof… I see the Egyptian members are chiming in. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/66 "2016-08-31T20:22:17Z")
> [@T.M](#): > > We have reached the stage where we can manipulate gene’s should we now start to think that evolution is managed by a higher power Not even a little bit. Why should we think that? The complete lack of evidence for it doesn’t suggest that it’s a fruitful pursuit. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/67 "2016-08-31T20:24:04Z")
My favorite part of the “proof” is this: _The God of Christianity is the necessary starting point…_ Bam!! Right out of nowhere. _Non sequitur_ anyone? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/68 "2016-08-31T20:25:20Z")
“Unless I’m mistaken, this sentence proves that God exists.” “Well, yeah; _unless you’re mistaken,_ it proves that God exists.” “So you agree – which means I’m not mistaken – which means that God exists.” - tip o’ the hat to Raymond Smullyan ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/69 "2016-08-31T20:36:45Z")
> [@GreenHell](#): > > While we are on the topic of Noah . . . did the ark have aquariums? Freshwater fish are usually poisoned by salt water. Yahweh could have altered them to be able to breathe salt-water. But, couldn’t he modify terrestrial creatures to breathe underwater . . . or modify sinful creatures to be dead and obviate the global flood entirely? I think it becomes clearer if you think of Yahweh as a sort of Bond villain. Sure, he has many different ways of achieving his objectives – with regard to the fish, for example, creationists certainly regard him as being a genetic engineer _par excellence_. But the Bond villain role model is instructive if one thinks of Yahweh as essentially a showman: his object is not simply to kill those who have offended him – his object is to do so in a truly spectacular fashion, involving major CGI and thunderous multichannel sound that makes your teeth rattle. There is no room for subtlety here – Yahweh is pure entertainment and action-packed moralizing. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/70 "2016-08-31T20:45:32Z")
I’m sure the eight remaining human beings were suitably impressed. ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/71 "2016-08-31T21:14:00Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > I’m sure the eight remaining human beings were suitably impressed. What the kiddos did to ol’ drunk Noah is one of the best parts! ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/72 "2016-08-31T21:16:09Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > I think it becomes clearer if you think of Yahweh as a sort of Bond villain. “Now, Abraham, I’ve arranged for your son, Isaac–your only son, whom you love–to be placed in this elaborate deathtrap…” ---
**Author:** ![Yodalicious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yodalicious/32/8195_2.png) [@Yodalicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yodalicious)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/73 "2016-08-31T21:19:57Z")
> [@Duke\_of\_Rat](#): > > The Bible is the word of God. > > It says that Noah took 2 of each animal and seven pairs of each bird. There are almost 10,000 bird species and some 5,000 mammals. So we’re up to 140,000 birds and 10,000 mammals on the ark, we’ll leave the reptiles and insects out for now. > > OK, let’s have a look at the law of math, shall we? It was an [Ark of Holding](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bag_of_holding), duh. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/74 "2016-08-31T21:32:40Z")
Let me start by saying that I believe in God, and furthermore, I believe that God is the only thing that saves me from an eternal oblivion after I die. Having gotten that out of the way, I don’t accept #4 and the whole thing about absolute moral laws. First, if the definition of “absolute” applies equally to mathematics, science and morality, it follows that all things must be subject to the same moral laws. But nature is full of exceptions. We do not judge an animal that eats its young, or engages in indiscriminate sex. We do not make a moral judgement between species which mate for life and those which don’t. Yet each of those animals is subject to the same physical laws – they are all (so far as we know) carbon-based, they all go through stages of development, and they all die. Why, then, do some absolute laws apply to animals, but not others? Secondly, if God could be “proven” to exist, then according to your absolute laws, the Christian God can be proven to exist through testing. You, however, have chosen to cite the Bible as your ultimate source. Whether we believe the Bible is literally true, or a series of moral lessons inspried by God, it is only a writing. If there is a God, then God exists independently of the Bible, independently of my belief, and independently of the universe and the laws that govern it. Belief is not proof, and to insist on equivalence diminishes both. ---
**Author:** ![Doubticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@Doubticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doubticus)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/75 "2016-08-31T21:45:33Z")
While many have claimed that God created man, my question is why would he/she? It’s been explained to me that God is a perfect being, to be reunited in heaven is to be free of all want. I would assume a feature of perfection is not wanting anything, i.e. God provides. But given this self-fulfilled nature, what would be the impetus for God wanting to create anything? God can’t be bored or lonely or be compelled to pursue a course of action to achieve a higher state of understanding. To create is a means to fill a deficit, to have a deficit implies imperfection. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/76 "2016-08-31T21:57:06Z")
Absolutely true if we define “God” as a perfect being free of want. I think everybody has their own definition of God, whether they admit it or not … each of us follows a moral code … and these moral codes differ just as our faces differ … ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/77 "2016-08-31T22:18:02Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > Let me start by saying that I believe in God, and furthermore, I believe that God is the only thing that saves me from an eternal oblivion after I die. If that gives you comfort, then it serves a purpose. No one should judge that. I have as much of a problem with atheist crusaders telling you why you’re wrong as with religious crusaders inflicting their religion on everyone else and telling them what they must believe. I think the problem many of us here have is that some are inclined to muddle poorly understood scientific principles with religious beliefs, and reach the conclusion that religious dogma can be factually “proven”. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/78 "2016-08-31T22:32:57Z")
I also love how he proclaims that without Christianity, logic and reason are impossible. So I guess those pagan Greek and Roman philosophers and mathematicians were the Donald Trumps of their day. Euclid? Aristotle? Morons. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/79 "2016-08-31T22:42:23Z")
What’s the over/under on the OP ever showing up again after that drive-by garbage dump? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2016, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/80 "2016-08-31T22:48:38Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > What’s the over/under on the OP ever showing up again after that drive-by garbage dump? Well, that’s on him; as for me, I’ve discovered a truly marvelous demonstration of the proposition that this post is too narrow to contain. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578.md?page=5)