# Proof That God Exists: An Open Debate For The Existence of God **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 31, 2016, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578 "2016-08-31T16:30:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/121 "2016-09-01T05:46:49Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Suppose we stipulate that there is a “Something” which “created” the laws of mathematics, physics, our universe, etc. What conclusions can we draw from that? Very few, I’m afraid — certainly it doesn’t lead to an argument for any specific God. (2+2=4 hardly convinces us that Moses saw a burning bush!) > > So, while I’m willing to accept the sentence “God created the Universe,” I argue that “God” here is nothing but a meaningless placeholder to complete the syntactic formula “\_\_ created the Universe.” This use of “God” is similar to that of “It” in “It is raining.” I agree with **MfM** that that was indeed very nicely phrased. It sort of goes like this: - we have persuasive evidence that traces the origin of the universe back to the Big Bang about 13.8 billion years ago. - the Big Bang created space and time, both of which are prerequisites for causality, so in terms of scientific understanding there seems no sense in which we can ask what “created” or “caused” the Big Bang - yet our basic drive for explanation insists that there has to be some epistemological sense – some broader understanding – in which we can frame such an event – of which there may be (for example) infinite instances in an unlimited multiverse. - we can choose to call such an understanding “God” The operative question is, now what? We’ve just given a word to “that which is undefined”. And that’s about as far from religious orthodoxy as you can get. It requires no burning bushes, heaven or hell, or any other mythological constructs. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/122 "2016-09-01T05:50:40Z")
If God exists, what language does He or She speak? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/123 "2016-09-01T06:43:05Z")
> [@Itself](#): > > I’ve run into people like that too. It’s a good hypothesis of why archconservative Bible colleges exist: They’re for students who want to learn something, but whose parents won’t let them escape from the church bubble they’re in. > > For a lot of the witnessers I’ve seen on the various Interwebs, I could easily imagine that they’re in the situation you describe. They’ve been in an environment where quite odd and unsupported beliefs are treated as perfectly reasonable. They look at the world and notice that most people don’t believe in the same way, and the conclusion that they draw is that the outer world simply has never heard of Jesus, or that 0.999… = 1, or that rotating mirrors disprove relativity, etc. It’s like the bizarrely easy strain of evangelism that characters in Chick tracks exercise. > > Still, I don’t think that’s exactly the situation here. The OP triggers too many crackpot flags: grandiose claims; a giant, rambling wall of text; claiming that leaps of logic are in fact patently obvious logical exercises; trying to set up an almost Socratic series of statements and demanding that readers agree to them; and so on. It’s nowhere near the level of 0.999… != 1 or disproving relativity or something about PHI, but I don’t see anything redeeming in the post. Right. I agree. This is cut and post, though. The OP did not show an ounce of originality in compiling his thoughts in the opening statement. A contemplative person would just test even one of the many steps that OP takes in the beginning to sense the validity of his entire position. In this forum we are not allowed to state the remaining possibility. ---
**Author:** ![DWMarch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dwmarch/32/1010_2.png) [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/124 "2016-09-01T08:07:50Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > If God exists, what language does He or She speak? Certainly not the King’s goddamn English! That’s one thing I could never reconcile about Christianity in the era where God decided he was bored now and had nothing further to say to his playthings. Mankind is always coming up with rules and regulations and red tape to place on a being that is subject to no such constraints. If you believe there is a God that is as powerful as the Christian God is stereotypically depicted it is the absolute height of arrogance and blasphemy to think that rules made up by men have any binding power over such a being. The Nicene Creed? A bunch of dudes upset by how some other dudes were defining God. Was God there to set the record straight? No, although Emperor Constantine was rocking enough bling to make people think he was a heavenly messenger. And how about that King James Bible? A look at the Wiki article (which I am sure has been extensively edited by Satan) shows that translating the bible into English was a clusterfuck to say the least and that the translation was definitely politically motivated. Why does God want this? The entirety of the Bible, Old and New Testatments alike take place in this little tiny area in the Middle East hundreds of years before there’s even a concept of England. But 1604 rolls around and now all of a sudden God needs a perfect version because He’s a fan of Manchester United or Coronation Street or The Beatles or something? The earlier bibles weren’t good enough? God doesn’t contract this crucial work out to the ancestors of his Chosen People? God needed six different translation committees? Next thing we know God is going to be asking me if He can borrow my starship. ---
**Author:** ![Jeduraiya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Jeduraiya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeduraiya)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/125 "2016-09-01T08:27:44Z")
_ **I’m sorry I haven’t replied sooner!** _ I’ve been busy all day, with visiting the doctor and working a full time job. I spent a lot of time creating the OP before posting, and once posted, I had to unfortunately leave. This is not a “drive by” post, and I plan on having full interaction within this thread! I have been reading over the waves of replies this has received in only the last few hours, and I am currently working on a rebuttal. I am about half way through it, but it’s already 3:23 A.M. where I am, and I’m beat! I can’t focus to finish my lengthy reply at the moment, but I promise that I will be back to post and answer some questions. I just wanted to come back for a sec and post this so you guys know I haven’t gone M.I.A. Thank you all for your replies, I’m thrilled to see so much interest in this! I have to go back to the doc tomorrow, but I am off work. I will post my reply sometime tomorrow, but please be patient with me. I have a VERY active life and don’t get as much free time as I’d like to post. There will be times when I will be on here and reply to almost everyone, but now is not one of those times. Sorry for no comments regarding this thread, but I am typing my response separately within my WordPad. See you all soon. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/126 "2016-09-01T08:33:22Z")
> [@Jeduraiya](#): > > [SIZE=“1”][7] **STEP FOUR: ABSOLUTE MORAL LAWS** [/SIZE] > I have seldom heard anyone deny that laws of logic, mathematics, or science exist, but I have often heard people deny the existence of absolute moral laws. Whereas some laws like those that govern science, and mathematics describe reality, and how things do behave, absolute moral laws ‘prescribe’ how humans ought to, or ought not to behave. Rape, and child molestation, are two examples of absolute moral wrongs. > So, do you believe in absolute moral laws? > > If you do, then continue to step five. If not, then please read the following. The following is intended only for those of you who believe absolute moral laws do not exist. > > 4a.) I feel that the best test to determine whether or not you really believe that absolute moral laws exist, is not whether you feel that atrocities like rape and child molestation could be right somewhere in the universe, but whether they could ever be right if perpetrated against you or someone you love. Please keep in mind, I am asking what YOU believe, not what you think anyone else believes. > > If you truly believed that there was no such thing as absolute morality then there would be no ‘right’ or ‘wrong,’ just things that you or your society happen not to like. Rape and child molestation would not be wrong, they would just become manmade objections. The question then becomes: 'If man is the measure of all things - which man? - which society? If someone with enough power happened to like rape and molestation, what right would we have to impose our morality on him? What would be wrong with the person, or society, with the power imposing their morality on you? Why do we condemn the Nazi society for following their self-imposed morals? Why did the Nazi society not have the right to break from the tradition of morality in western civilizations? > > There is no question that societies have different interpretations of morality but if you examine the following sentence you will see the illogic of thinking that societies determine morality. “The majority of the people in our society participated in that evil deed.” If morality was up to society, that sentence would never make sense, but we know that morality is beyond societies and such a proposition is possible. > > You have denied that absolute moral laws exist but you appeal to them all the time. You say that rape IS wrong because you know that it IS wrong and not just against your personal preference. Crayfish eat their own young - it’s actually one of the reasons they are successful - they produce far more offspring than strictly required just to replenish the population - the young crayfish then go out and feed across a wide area, fatten themselves up and subsequently, many of them are consumed by their own parents. It’s a very effective way of gathering resources - effectively, individuals have many, mobile mouths. It’s part of their biology. So I can easily imagine an alien species on another planet, evolving to sentience with something like that intrinsically wired into their biology (just as we have monkey stuff baked into ours). They’ll have a very different set of moral laws to us, and if we ever meet them, we’ll have a hard time accepting each others’ version of what we previously thought was ‘absolute morality’. And anyway, ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/127 "2016-09-01T08:53:37Z")
> [@yanceylebeef](#): > > Of all the gallops, this is the Gishiest. Really missing a “Like” button… ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/128 "2016-09-01T08:59:23Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > Wasn’t the Bible written by Bronze Age goat herders? Iron Age, by the time they got to writing any of their myths down. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/129 "2016-09-01T09:59:24Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > And anyway, Oops. I meant to complete that thought… And anyway… things can be universal without being absolute. People generally don’t like being poked in the eye, but that’s not because there is an absolute underlying law stating they must not like it. They dislike it because it hurts. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/130 "2016-09-01T10:20:23Z")
When it comes to so-called “moral laws”, I have to ask - just for us? Because rape and child molestation and murder happen all the time in the animal kingdom. I don’t see any Biblical condemnation of ducks or dolphins or any of the other cross-species necrophiliac rapist-murderer species out there. Sea otters will rape baby seals. To death. Is that by divine design, or are they just evil? ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/131 "2016-09-01T10:25:41Z")
[QUOTE= **Jeduraiya** If you truly believed that there was no such thing as absolute morality then there would be no ‘right’ or ‘wrong,’ just things that you or your society happen not to like. [/quote] correct > [@](#): > > Rape and child molestation would not be wrong, they would just become manmade objections. They are. There have been plenty of societies where rape (of women from the other tribe/nation) was totaly acceptable. Child molestation is common and accepted in Afghanistan. > [@](#): > > The question then becomes: 'If man is the measure of all things - which man? - which society? Man is the measure? No, your society is the measure against which you check. > [@](#): > > Why do we condemn the Nazi society for following their self-imposed morals? > Why did the Nazi society not have the right to break from the tradition of morality in western civilizations? They lost the war. Their image as the’ bad guys’, as the opponent in that war, led to a lot of their morals also being viewed as ‘bad’. Remember that at the time, before the war, Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy were very much admired by many. Quite a few of their morals, now condemned, were more widespread than just their own countries. So, your examples of a universal absolute (anti-)moral fail, I’m afraid. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/132 "2016-09-01T12:30:49Z")
[QUOTE= Thudlow Boink] This argument doesn’t work against a God who is eternal and hence hasn’t “arisen” at all. [/quote] > [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > If one can postulate an eternal God and a universe that got created, why not skip a step to postulate an eternal universe? Both interesting points, but note that nothing in cosmology requires the universe to be either eternal or infinite. Currently we have an age of 13.7 billion years and a radius of 46.5 billion light-years, beyond which nothing is known; these data do not necessarily imply an eternal, infinite creator god. A non-infinite, non-eternal creator god would suffice - and this entity could have been created by a more complex entity, and so on ad infinitum. Logic doesn’t imply an end to this progression. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/133 "2016-09-01T13:45:03Z")
> [@Jeduraiya](#): > > Proof of God As a Christian, let me give you my perspective. Suppose there is a proof that God exists. Then the existence of God is a scientific fact. Good, yes? No, quite the opposite. When it comes to science, there is no faith. There’s no faith in the laws of motion or the equations of electromagnetics or conservation of energy. They are simply facts of the universe. Faith is an essential component of Christianity. And a proof of God would preclude that. What should a Christian do when confronted with a claimed proof of God? [Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+12%3A30&version=NET) In this case, apply your mind and understand the flaws in the proof. I have not yet read other replies to your post, but I expect that other posters have spent great effort to find those flaws. Thank them for doing the Lord’s work and thank God for strengthening your faith. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/134 "2016-09-01T13:57:48Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > As a Christian, let me give you my perspective. > > Suppose there is a proof that God exists. Then the existence of God is a scientific fact. Good, yes? > > No, quite the opposite. When it comes to science, there is no faith. There’s no faith in the laws of motion or the equations of electromagnetics or conservation of energy. They are simply facts of the universe. > > Faith is an essential component of Christianity. And a proof of God would preclude that. > > What should a Christian do when confronted with a claimed proof of God? [Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+12%3A30&version=NET) In this case, apply your mind and understand the flaws in the proof. > > I have not yet read other replies to your post, but I expect that other posters have spent great effort to find those flaws. Thank them for doing the Lord’s work and thank God for strengthening your faith. Additionally, if you can prove God exists, then he’s really just an alien life-form with really cool technology. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/135 "2016-09-01T14:05:51Z")
> [@Itself](#): > > It’s a paragraph. Maybe it’s a long paragraph, but calling it a wall of text is needlessly hyperbolic. > > For the first bit, replace the ellipsis with a period, em-dash, or something similar; for the second, drop ‘although’ and reword the rest accordingly. Beyond that, meh, I’ve lost interest in this discussion. Meh… ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/136 "2016-09-01T14:07:35Z")
OP, could you please describe to the best of your ability the “god” you think you have proven to exist, and why you think your “proof” applies to your version of the Christian deity and no other…like, say, the deity the Jews worship? ---
**Author:** ![GunnarFranz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/da6949/32.png) [@GunnarFranz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GunnarFranz)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/137 "2016-09-01T14:16:20Z")
> [@T.M](#): > > I am not a well read nor highly educated person. My belief in a creator God is based simply on the thought that creation is far to complex to be an accident of nature. the decision here is are we discussing a religion or a creator. One question to be asked and often ignored by Christians is, who was God speaking to before Abraham? Personally I think that we will need to look further back than biblical scripture and listen to other far older faiths and their teachings. The anthropic principle firmly refutes the fine-tuned theory and the ontological argument posed by OP. There is simply no need for a(ny) God in 2016. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/138 "2016-09-01T14:26:24Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > They lost the war. > Their image as the’ bad guys’, as the opponent in that war, led to a lot of their morals also being viewed as ‘bad’. > Remember that at the time, before the war, Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy were very much admired by many. Quite a few of their morals, now condemned, were more widespread than just their own countries. > > So, your examples of a universal absolute (anti-)moral fail, I’m afraid. Yeah, the argument essentially boils down to “Why are all the people I disagree with, wrong?” ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/139 "2016-09-01T15:04:32Z")
I disagree with this whole notion of “life on Earth is too complex” … I honestly don’t think it is … certainly too complex for humans to understand … but that’s hardly an objective standard of what is too complex to be real. There’s a tendency for humans to view the passage of time in terms of a human lifetime, which is extremely short compared to evolutionary time frames, which again is extremely short in terms of geologic time frames. Life on land is but 15% the history of life on Earth. I’d even go as far as to say that if 4.7 billion years of evolution _doesn’t_ seem too complex, then we’re not seeing things correctly … ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578/140 "2016-09-01T18:37:39Z")
I believe there are some absolute moral laws, and that therefore there is actual good and evil, not merely this or that historically-existent socially-developed _idea_ about what good and evil are. I do not, however, believe that any human being, or any plural collection thereof, can ever know without uncertainty what those absolute laws are. And that’s important. I’m going to indict the behavior of going around acting as if you _do_ know as a certainty what is moral and what is immoral, and treating others accordingly, as the central moral crime from which most social problems spring. Paradoxically, I’m going to say that if there’s anything you can take hold of and cling to as a certainty, that’s it — that there ain’t none and that you don’t get to behave as if there were and that you are in a position to judge other people and their behaviors without remaining aware that you might be wrong. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-god-exists-an-open-debate-for-the-existence-of-god/764578.md?page=8)