# Proof that the military has its priorities all fucked up. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 4, 2004, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-the-military-has-its-priorities-all-fucked-up/248555 "2004-06-04T01:23:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2004, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-the-military-has-its-priorities-all-fucked-up/248555/61 "2004-06-05T04:37:59Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Funny, that sounded like just what you were arguing for. > > You should stand by what you said, **Diogenes** , or disavow it now. And yes, vigilantism is the moral equivalent of what you’ve advocated. It’s an individual deciding that his personal moral choices trump the rule of law. I vehemently disagree that there is any equivalence and reject your assertions outright. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2004, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-the-military-has-its-priorities-all-fucked-up/248555/62 "2004-06-05T04:42:19Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The difference is that fleeing the field puts people in danger and refusing to return does not. > . How so? The end result is one less soldier in the field in both cases. In both cases, commanders count on that one soldier. They plan for his being there. And there force is depleted by one and they do not have that soldier’s particular skill, whatever that may be. What is the big difference when that soldier chooses to scurry? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2004, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-the-military-has-its-priorities-all-fucked-up/248555/63 "2004-06-05T04:48:19Z")
Reject all you wish. The equivalence, as noted by **Spoofe** , is a very real thing. You can’t run away from these implications - they’re inescapable. We’ve already spelled out the honorable and legal ways of avoiding combat and keeping your conscience clear, **Diogenes**. If you’re not willing to take these steps, you sully your conscience and run afoul of the law. I really don’t see why this is so hard for you to grasp. I especially don’t see how you can fail to see that the law cannot be more lenient without causing a breakdown of discipline. That can cause more deaths in the field - something we’re all trying to minimize here. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2004, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-the-military-has-its-priorities-all-fucked-up/248555/64 "2004-06-05T05:01:47Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > How so? The end result is one less soldier in the field in both cases. In both cases, commanders count on that one soldier. They plan for his being there. And there force is depleted by one and they do not have that soldier’s particular skill, whatever that may be. What is the big difference when that soldier chooses to scurry? No one would leave the field in the first place if there wasn’t an adequate replacement. Anyway the miltary is specifically structured to _not_ be dependent on any one individual. I think the danger to troops in field of an action like Mejia’s is pretty much non-existent. **Moto**. Passively refusing to do something morally repugnant is not the same as attempting enforce a personal morality or justice on others. There is no equivalency between opting out of a war and vigilanteism. Actually, it’s kind of ironic that you would harp on vigilanteism since the invasion of Iraq was itself a massive act of vigilanteism which defied international law. If all countries did that we’d have chaos would we not? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2004, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-the-military-has-its-priorities-all-fucked-up/248555/65 "2004-06-05T05:10:16Z")
**Diogenes** , if someone is counting on you to do a job, and you refuse to do that job, that is not a passive act. That is a very deliberate act of resistance. In the military, where lives may well count on said job getting done, this is even more true. Nobody can passively refuse to do anything. That’s just a sentence full of nonsense. Refusal is an action. The actions of the U.S. government are quite another matter, well discussed in other threads. The fact that you’re bringing up this up again only shows that you’re losing this particular argument on its own merits. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2004, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-the-military-has-its-priorities-all-fucked-up/248555/66 "2004-06-05T05:18:24Z")
We’re just going to have to agree to disagree on this, **Moto**. I think torturers deserve worse punishment than Mejio. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2004, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-the-military-has-its-priorities-all-fucked-up/248555/67 "2004-06-05T05:21:33Z")
I don’t disagree with that statement on its face, **Diogenes**. But I sure do have an issue with some of your arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-the-military-has-its-priorities-all-fucked-up/248555/68 "2004-06-06T02:29:48Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I think torturers deserve worse punishment than Mejio. YMMV. On this, I will agree. The torturerers should have gotton a _lot_ more time in the slam. I still think Mejio deserved what\* he \* got. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-the-military-has-its-priorities-all-fucked-up/248555/69 "2004-06-06T02:50:56Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > So therefore corporate theft (i.e. Enron and their ilk) should get a slap on the wrist because it’s not comparable to murder? I’m sure Ken Lay would be glad to know that his fraud shouldn’t be severely punished. Actually, I honestly don’t know how I would compare murdering one person with stealing from millions and possibly severely impacting the lives of several hundred or thousand. It’s an interesting question. I think it is easier to make comparisons when the occur at approximately the same level in terms of the number of people they impact. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-the-military-has-its-priorities-all-fucked-up/248555/70 "2004-06-06T03:01:39Z")
> [@Coin](#): > > I’ll grant that the man showed no physical cowardice, and if he’d gone through the proper channels and made certain one or more of his underlings was trained to replace him I would even go so far as to call his actions moral. Since he apparently didn’t do this, I have to assert that he showed moral cowardice by washing his hands of the situation rather than doing what he could to make his small part of it right… I deeply disagree with this . If you’re thinking you’re one of the wheels of a machinery leading an unjust war with unnaceptable methods, the moral thing to do is to leave, not to stay and going on supporting this unjust war by your active participation. Trying to prevent bad things for occuring, or to warm people higher up in the chain of command is fine and dandy, and even laudable, but if it doesn’t prove to be efficient, at some point one has the moral to break ties and walk away, or else, he will an accomplice of what is commited. If you’re morally strongly opposed to something, you can’t accept to stay involved. As for leaving his comrades in need, my response would be : his comrades could have done the same. If they didn’t, it means that they were actually supporting what he’s morraly opposed to, and he _had_ (morally) to leave them at their own devices. The behavior of this man is precisely the most morally commendable in my opinion. I expressed this view several times on this board. I often give the example of the Israeli refuzniks who were recently sentenced because they refused to serve in the occupied territories, though they were perfectly willing to fight in a situation where, acording to them, Israel occupied the moral high ground. In France I could more readily give the example of desertors who refused to fight in the Algeria war, but it won’t be as familiar an example on this american board. When things are as serious as involving blowing stuff, kiling, risking one’s life, torturing, IOW when war is involved, ultimately, nothing should weight more in one’s decision than one’s conscience. And the morale failure is in accepting to fight or support a fight for an unjust cause and/or by unjust means. Breaking an oath, abandonning people who are precisely involved in/commiting/supporting these actions is certainly of a very minor importance by comparison. Where the duty lies, in my point of view, is very clear. ---
**Author:** ![Fritz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c57346/32.png) [@Fritz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fritz)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-the-military-has-its-priorities-all-fucked-up/248555/71 "2004-06-06T03:27:27Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > As for leaving his comrades in need, my response would be : his comrades could have done the same. If they didn’t, it means that they were actually supporting what he’s morraly opposed to, and he _had_ (morally) to leave them at their own devices. Is there any indication that Mejia was involved or even knew about the torture? Because the two events happened at the same time and in the same general location does not mean that the two events are related. Certainly orders and missions that are clearly unjust/unlawful (i.e., “Go shoot those prisoners”) should be resisted at any cost. The soldiers that were involved in the torture should be punished severely, and their officers and superiors should be right next to them. Mejia was a soldier and deserted his post. Both the tortures and Mejia should be punished severly, but for different reasons. I hope the torturers get a severe punishment, but Mejia got off too lightly. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2004, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-the-military-has-its-priorities-all-fucked-up/248555/72 "2004-06-06T03:31:15Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > On this, I will agree. The torturerers should have gotton a _lot_ more time in the slam. For whatever it’s worth, there’s something of a quirk in the military justice system which provides a very strong barrier against guilty pleas which result in sentences longer than one year. Basically, under a Special Court Martial, the maximum sentence is a year plus a dishonorable discharge. To get more than that for a sentence, the military has to convene a General Court Martial. Here’s where the problem is. Unlike the civilian system (in non-death-penalty cases) under a General Court Martial appeals are not waived by a guilty plea. Indeed, some of the appeals process is automatic, and there are additional reviews where officers may reduce (but not increase) sentences unilaterally. So if the persons here decided a few weeks in that they didn’t like life in a military prison, they could actively join their automatic appeals process. Even if they didn’t, they’d be agitating for a shorter sentence than whatever the original court handed out. This creates something of a natural cut-off at a year for all but the most grevious crimes. A guilty defendant has a very strong incentive to insist that the plea come in a Special proceeding to minimize his sentence. A prosecutor has an equally strong incentive to close the books on a case. Unless the defendant thinks acquittal is a reasonable possibility or the prosecutor thinks the crime merits a sentence in the multiples of a year _and_ has a strong belief that s/he’ll get it accomplished net after appeals and reviews, a Special is where a plea will occur. ---
**Author:** ![JohnBckWLD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JohnBckWLD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnBckWLD)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-the-military-has-its-priorities-all-fucked-up/248555/73 "2005-11-08T20:03:16Z")
> [@annaplurabelle](#): > > …Consider the story of [Staff Sgt Jimmy Massey](http://www.smokymountainnews.com/issues/05_04/05_26_04/fr_massey.html), who also decided the war in Iraq was wrong:Contrast that with Meija, who just didn’t turn up for 5 months, and only applied for CO status after the fact…BTW, [here’s](http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=1119) another interview with Massey, with more details about the _many reasons_ he turned against the war. In the interest of accuracy, he sounds more like a lying sack of shit. From the [StL Post-Dispatch](http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/stlouiscitycounty/story/56CC420E23027E0D862570B0007200BC?OpenDocument) > [@](#): > > Media outlets throughout the world have reported Jimmy Massey’s claims of war crimes, frequently without ever seeking to verify them…The Associated Press…wrote three stories about Massey, including an interview with him in October about his new book. > > But none of the AP reporters ever called Ravi Nessman, an Associated Press reporter who was embedded with Massey’s unit. Nessman wrote more than 30 stories about the unit from the beginning of the war until April 15, after Baghdad had fallen…Massey wasn’t telling the truth should have become obvious the more he told his stories, said Phillip Dixon, former managing editor of The Philadelphia Inquirer and currently chairman of the Howard University Department of Journalism… Of course the fact Massey is liar has no relevence to the OP’s rant about Abu Ghraib prison abuses - but it does prove that sometimes the extraneous chatter that often accompanies these stories should be looked into ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2005, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-the-military-has-its-priorities-all-fucked-up/248555/74 "2005-11-08T20:35:36Z")
> [@Tapioca Dextrin](#): > > Tell you what Mr Monkey. Why don’t you wire yourself into the mains for a few minutes and report back. > > overgrown joy buzzer = you are a grade A fucktard. Wow. I was totally unconvinced by your argument, until I saw how big you made these letters. Then I thought to myself, “Self, anyone who isn’t afraid of making his letters really really big MUSt know what he’s on about. You’d be a fool not to listen to him!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proof-that-the-military-has-its-priorities-all-fucked-up/248555.md?page=3)