# Prop 8 (CA) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 5, 2008, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prop-8-ca/471250 "2008-11-05T09:48:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prop-8-ca/471250/141 "2008-11-05T20:09:16Z")
> [@Karyn](#): > > That was great and the first thing I’ve read that makes me feel a bit better about what my state just did. You should plaster it all over the place. Agreed. Thanks for that post Story. You too Hawk. I am finding it hard to see another ammendment being added repealing prop 8 so soon after this one passed, but that doesn’t make it impossible. ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prop-8-ca/471250/142 "2008-11-05T20:09:48Z")
> [@SmartAleq](#): > > Really, dude, what part of “shut the fuck up, you fucking troll” are you still unclear on? The part where people keep addressing posts to me and I continue to have every right to respond to them on this public message board, the part where I’m not a troll or doing anything that even resembles trolling just by being in dissent, and the part where you think I should give a shit about you ordering me around. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prop-8-ca/471250/143 "2008-11-05T20:40:13Z")
> [@Ensign\_Edison](#): > > Once again, I said exactly what I meant, repeatedly. That it is asinine to simultaneously claim you had no choice but to compromise and that you didn’t compromise at all. It is asinine – and intellectually dishonest – to assign that “claim” to others when the only one making it is you. What’s that word for misconstruing other people’s positions and setting up a fallacious point for the sole purpose of disputing that point? Hayperson? ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prop-8-ca/471250/144 "2008-11-05T21:03:13Z")
> [@Jodi](#): > > It is asinine – and intellectually dishonest – to assign that “claim” to others when the only one making it is you. What’s that word for misconstruing other people’s positions and setting up a fallacious point for the sole purpose of disputing that point? Hayperson? You also should try reading the conversation in which you are participating. Once again, here is the post from jayjay which began this line of discussion: > [@](#): > > Can you name a major-party candidate (final or primary) that actually was FOR same-sex marriage? Yes, I voted Obama. Yes, I’m extremely disappointed in Prop 8’s passage. There is no actual disconnect between those two things. Life ain’t simple. He claimed there is no disconnect. I explained where I see the disconnect. Since then, several others have echoed his view that there is no disconnect. If you think I’m misinterpreting these claims or wrong in my view, please explain why. If you think I’m doing it on purpose, then there’s no point in engaging me about it. Obviously I am not just making it up that people think there’s no disconnect – that is the dominant position in this thread. > [@SmartAleq](#): > > Your pathetic wibbling and nitpicking is inappropriate in this thread–don’t you have something else to do, like kicking some puppies or eviscerating cute little hamsters? Just fuck off, will you, and let the rest of us have our mourning and disappointment. I missed this before. This is the fucking Pit. If you want a party where everybody agrees, you’re in the wrong forum. I am also in pain about this, and it’s pretty fucking outrageous for you to imply that because I maintain that it is a compromise for someone who is pro-equal-rights to vote for someone who can’t reconcile his support for them with his belief that Jesus doesn’t share that support, I must not care. Are you claiming it is not a compromise, or that the people who keep yelling at me about how it was a necessary compromise are lying? > [@Miller](#): > > Actually, one of the reasons I voted for Obama is precisely because gay rights is so important to me. No, he’s not the perfect gay rights candidate. But that’s because the perfect gay rights candidate would be unelectable on the national stage. What Obama is, is the candidate least likely to further erode my rights, and most likely to support further (if not total) protections for my rights. This is not a compromise, this is the soundest tactical decision available to me as a voter at this point. This is the best way to eventually secure the rights and protections I want. Ah yes, the “I couldn’t vote for him because nobody would vote for him” circular ‘viability’ argument again. But regardless, I never said it wasn’t the best or only option, and repeatedly suggested it may very well be, though how what you describe is not a compromise I have no idea. You know he thinks Jesus doesn’t want us to have equal rights. Unless you’re completely on board with a politician thinking that (regardless of what promises he makes), to vote for one is to compromise. I didn’t say “and therefore you’re all evil”. I didn’t say “and therefore you’re responsible for prop 8”. I said there’s a disconnect between making that choice and then disavowing all knowledge and savaging others who chose a different part of the same candidate’s claims to focus on. Of course prop 8 is dead wrong, and the people who voted for it are wrong. But a lot of them sailed in on your ship, so for folks to act like they’re shocked, shocked to find bigots in this establishment is silly. ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prop-8-ca/471250/145 "2008-11-05T21:18:11Z")
> [@Mahna\_Mahna](#): > > I’m so sorry, America. If Christianity is supposed to be about love, tolerance and forgiveness, then these sheep have truly strayed far from their shepherd. ☹ As I grow older, I seem to have a better understanding of what those 3 words actually mean and treat everyone with those 3 words on my mind. [Also, the greatest commandment (Love of God) and the second (Love of Neighbor) also gives me a sense of direction.](http://www.twopaths.com/greatest.htm). Lastly, I had just seen [The Laramie Project](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0257850/) last month on the 10th anniversary of Matthew Sheppard’s death. Having said that, I went against the herd, and voted no on 8. I might not have done this (and I don’t really recall either) 10 or 20 years ago, but now I feel more human in doing so…and dare I say, righteous. I’m truly sorry that we’re in the minority…but give it time, it will happen eventually. ---
**Author:** ![Chef\_Troy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85f322/32.png) [@Chef\_Troy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chef_Troy)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prop-8-ca/471250/146 "2008-11-05T21:21:53Z")
Personally, I think everyone has this issue exactly backwards. The way to go about this isn’t to let state government, or any government, sanction gay marriage. It’s to **stop** letting government sanction **straight** marriages. No, no, hear me out. It’s not the government’s purview to extend or withhold its “blessing” (for lack of a better word) over what is essentially a religious matter. The sensible thing, in my opinion, would be to consider the spiritual/religious aspects and the legal aspects of marriage separately. In other words, civil unions for EVERYONE, gay or straight, would be all the government offered. You would then have a separate MARRIAGE ceremony performed by the church of your choice. A given religion might refuse to perform marriage ceremonies for gay couples, but other religions would be happy to do it. Either way, it wouldn’t matter because marriage would have no legal implications - it would be a religious sacrament, nothing more. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prop-8-ca/471250/147 "2008-11-05T21:23:56Z")
> [@Ensign\_Edison](#): > > Ah yes, the “I couldn’t vote for him because nobody would vote for him” circular ‘viability’ argument again. But regardless, I never said it wasn’t the best or only option, and repeatedly suggested it may very well be, though how what you describe is not a compromise I have no idea. You know he thinks Jesus doesn’t want us to have equal rights. Unless you’re completely on board with a politician thinking that (regardless of what promises he makes), to vote for one is to compromise. I didn’t say “and therefore you’re all evil”. I didn’t say “and therefore you’re responsible for prop 8”. I said there’s a disconnect between making that choice and then disavowing all knowledge and savaging others who chose a different part of the same candidate’s claims to focus on. Of course prop 8 is dead wrong, and the people who voted for it are wrong. But a lot of them sailed in on your ship, so for folks to act like they’re shocked, shocked to find bigots in this establishment is silly. Serious question: Have you received a blow to the head in the last 24 hours? This sort of agressive stupidity is really unlike you. ---
**Author:** ![cowgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cowgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cowgirl)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prop-8-ca/471250/148 "2008-11-05T21:26:40Z")
What’s up with this? [Proposition 8 foes refuse to concede](http://www.sacbee.com/1089/story/1371978.html) > [@](#): > > Opponents of a ballot measure to ban gay marriage refused to concede this morning, despite vote totals that show supporters of Proposition 8 with a 400,000-vote advantage. > > Kate Kendall, executive director of the National Center for Lesbian Rights, said 3 million to 4 million ballots remain uncounted statewide. Is this realistic? I’m having trouble keeping up. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prop-8-ca/471250/149 "2008-11-05T21:31:06Z")
> [@Yeticus\_Rex](#): > > As I grow older, I seem to have a better understanding of what those 3 words actually mean and treat everyone with those 3 words on my mind. [Also, the greatest commandment (Love of God) and the second (Love of Neighbor) also gives me a sense of direction.](http://www.twopaths.com/greatest.htm). Lastly, I had just seen [The Laramie Project](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0257850/) last month on the 10th anniversary of Matthew Sheppard’s death. > > Having said that, I went against the herd, and voted no on 8. I might not have done this (and I don’t really recall either) 10 or 20 years ago, but now I feel more human in doing so…and dare I say, righteous. Yes, but did you vote for Obama or McCain? Because apparently if you did, you’re still just some quisling asshole like the rest of us. ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prop-8-ca/471250/150 "2008-11-05T21:32:41Z")
> [@Chef\_Troy](#): > > The sensible thing, in my opinion, would be to consider the spiritual/religious aspects and the legal aspects of marriage separately. In other words, civil unions for EVERYONE, gay or straight, would be all the government offered. You would then have a separate MARRIAGE ceremony performed by the church of your choice. Amend “ **would** then have a separate MARRIAGE ceremony” to “ **could** then have…” and you’ve got yourself a deal. From me at least. 🙂 When same-sex marriage and/or civil unions were under discussion in NZ this was exactly the approach I though the govt. should take; get out of the marriage business altogether and limit themselves to the purely legal/contractual aspects of powers of attorney, property division, child support, etc. Get out of the religious aspects completely. (And we don’t even have a formal separation of church and State). For what little it’s worth: my deepest sympathies on Prop 8. I sincerely hope this is resolved, and soon. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prop-8-ca/471250/151 "2008-11-05T21:44:44Z")
> [@Ensign\_Edison](#): > > You also should try reading the conversation in which you are participating. Ooh, zing! :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Once again, here is the post from jayjay which began this line of discussion . . . He claimed there is no disconnect. I explained where I see the disconnect. Correct. **YOU** see the disconnect. Only you. Now you want to make statements as to what other people are “claiming” regarding a disconnect that only YOU assert exists. There is not a single other person here (at least who has posted) who accepts your premise that a disconnect or compromise exists in this context in the first place. Just you. You keep wanting to leap ahead to arguing about how to interpret this “compromise” when your base premise – that a compromise even exists in the first place – is both faulty and universally rejected. And of course you’re doing it on purpose, because you’re not an idiot being controlled by malignant forces. So far as we know. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prop-8-ca/471250/152 "2008-11-05T21:57:13Z")
> [@Ensign\_Edison](#): > > Once again, I said exactly what I meant, repeatedly. That it is asinine to simultaneously claim you had no choice but to compromise and that you didn’t compromise at all. You really are that stupid, huh? To quote Buzz Lightyear, you are a sad, strange little man, and you have my pity. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prop-8-ca/471250/153 "2008-11-05T22:14:04Z")
I can’t say I’m not surprised, because I am. Florida, I expected. California? No. Bummer. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prop-8-ca/471250/154 "2008-11-05T22:41:34Z")
> [@groman](#): > > Here are some TV ads I’ve seen over the past few weeks: > > Yes on 8: > [ol] > [li][http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kKn5LNhNto](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kKn5LNhNto)[/li][li][http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PgjcgqFYP4](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PgjcgqFYP4)[/li][li][http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l61Pd5\_jHQw](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l61Pd5_jHQw)[/li][/ol] > > So basically gay marriage eats babies and sodomizes schoolteachers, whether you like it or not! Wow. I’d only seen the first of those. Number two seems so very dishearteningly disgusting to me… (Actually, number three is pretty disgusting too, with that dark-images-and-scary-announcer-tone cliche going for it. Hell, all three are offputting. [Well, clearly not to others…]) I don’t actually know what the public school curriculum rules are, and they are, of course, always subject to change, but what the hell is the big deal over kids being taught that same-sex marriages are legally recognized in some places in the world, given that that is, in fact, the truth of the matter? What is the potential danger here, such that we should so fervently shield them from this mundane piece of trivia? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prop-8-ca/471250/155 "2008-11-05T22:45:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sorry. Responsibility for the decision lies with the voters, for the good and for the bad. > > This one is bad. Afraid so. People or churches can throw money at “propaganda” but in the end, it’s the voters themselves. I’m not happy right now. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prop-8-ca/471250/156 "2008-11-05T22:59:12Z")
Aargh, and the end of [this ad](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YRQZwNfQ0o). All the “think of the children” handbasket-Cassandraism makes me sick. I guess I should just consider myself lucky that I somehow managed to avoid seeing most of these ads when they actually aired… ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prop-8-ca/471250/157 "2008-11-05T23:11:47Z")
> [@chela](#): > > [Elsa Prince](http://www.mediatransparency.org/personprofile.php?personID=1178) From Holland Michigan, Mama to Erik Prince of Blackwater and Betsy DeVos (MI Republican Committee Chair and married to Amway family) donated a halfmillion to the campaign against prop 8. Wait a minute-according to the above link, she donated to the campaign FOR Prop 8. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prop-8-ca/471250/158 "2008-11-05T23:17:07Z")
> [@liberty3701](#): > > And my heart goes out to **Hostile Dialect** and **Indistinguishable** , my friends in every thread involving linguistics, as well as all Californians. Thanks, although, in case it’s not clear, I’m just a concerned straight Californian, and thus not personally affected in the way I believe **Hostile Dialect** could potentially be. But as you note, it sucks for all of us, to lose that ability to be really proud of our state… ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prop-8-ca/471250/159 "2008-11-05T23:19:06Z")
> [@Jodi](#): > > Correct. **YOU** see the disconnect. Only you. Now you want to make statements as to what other people are “claiming” regarding a disconnect that only YOU assert exists. There is not a single other person here (at least who has posted) who accepts your premise that a disconnect or compromise exists in this context in the first place. Just you. You keep wanting to leap ahead to arguing about how to interpret this “compromise” when your base premise – that a compromise even exists in the first place – is both faulty and universally rejected. So your complaint is that I continue to hold my opinion even when people disagree? Do you actually have the ability to articulate a response to my points which demonstrates how I’m wrong, or is shrieking about how nobody agrees with me your best argument? Did you miss the posts where people DID in fact agree that voting for an imperfect candidate will always be necessary? What do you call it when you make a decision to accept certain flaws because the benefits outweigh them, if not compromise? Do you recall that I quoted that because you first accused me of completely making up anyone claiming there was a disconnect, by the way? ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prop-8-ca/471250/160 "2008-11-05T23:22:46Z")
> [@garygnu](#): > > You really are that stupid, huh? > > To quote Buzz Lightyear, you are a sad, strange little man, and you have my pity. If you pity me, then perhaps you could deign to make an attempt at explaining why what you quoted is stupid? Do you often go around insulting the people you pity, by the way? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prop-8-ca/471250.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prop-8-ca/471250.md?page=9)