# Prop 8 (CA) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 5, 2008, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prop-8-ca/471250 "2008-11-05T09:48:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prop-8-ca/471250/161 "2008-11-05T23:34:05Z")
**Ensign Edison** , Obama’s personal views are flaws insofar as they are against same-sex marriage. That is unfortunate. But how is it a compromise to vote for him if his every action is against the direction of legislating those personal views into public law? When making voting decisions, I (try to) only care about people’s personal beliefs insofar as they impinge on their actions in office. ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prop-8-ca/471250/162 "2008-11-05T23:41:26Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > **Ensign Edison** , Obama’s personal views are flaws insofar as they are against same-sex marriage. That is unfortunate. But how is it a compromise to vote for him if his every action is against the direction of legislating those personal views into public law? When making voting decisions, I (try to) only care about people’s personal beliefs insofar as they impinge on their actions in office. If you truly don’t mind that he thinks Jesus doesn’t want us to have equal rights (so strongly that even his personal devotion to equal rights doesn’t make him question this), or don’t worry that the pandering everyone says he’s doing when he says that isn’t going to end up cutting the other way as a result, then there’s no compromise for you, no. (But even if there were, I’ve repeatedly said it’s not necessarily wrong, and may sometimes be necessary, to compromise on such issues.) ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prop-8-ca/471250/163 "2008-11-05T23:43:13Z")
On a happier note–[ACLU to the rescue](http://www.aclu.org/lgbt/relationships/37706prs20081105.html): > [@](#): > > SAN FRANCISCO – The American Civil Liberties Union, Lambda Legal and the National Center for Lesbian Rights filed a writ petition before the California Supreme Court today urging the court to invalidate Proposition 8 if it passes. The petition charges that Proposition 8 is invalid because the initiative process was improperly used in an attempt to undo the constitution’s core commitment to equality for everyone by eliminating a fundamental right from just one group – lesbian and gay Californians. Proposition 8 also improperly attempts to prevent the courts from exercising their essential constitutional role of protecting the equal protection rights of minorities. According to the California Constitution, such radical changes to the organizing principles of state government cannot be made by simple majority vote through the initiative process, but instead must, at a minimum, go through the state legislature first. > > The California Constitution itself sets out two ways to alter the document that sets the most basic rules about how state government works. Through the initiative process, voters can make relatively small changes to the constitution. But any measure that would change the underlying principles of the constitution must first be approved by the legislature before being submitted to the voters. That didn’t happen with Proposition 8, and that’s why it’s invalid. > > “If the voters approved an initiative that took the right to free speech away from women, but not from men, everyone would agree that such a measure conflicts with the basic ideals of equality enshrined in our constitution. Proposition 8 suffers from the same flaw – it removes a protected constitutional right – here, the right to marry – not from all Californians, but just from one group of us,” said Jenny Pizer, a staff attorney with Lambda Legal. “That’s too big a change in the principles of our constitution to be made just by a bare majority of voters.” > > “A major purpose of the constitution is to protect minorities from majorities. Because changing that principle is a fundamental change to the organizing principles of the constitution itself, only the legislature can initiate such revisions to the constitution,” added Elizabeth Gill, a staff attorney with the ACLU of Northern California. This looks very promising! ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prop-8-ca/471250/164 "2008-11-05T23:55:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I do. I can only imagine how crushing this is, and I know you don’t need to imagine – you have to live it. I was trying to make a larger point about voter responsibility, but I don’t want to derail your absolutely justified outrage and venting. So I’ll bow out, except to say I apologize on behalf of my co-religionists that pushed this. They know not what they do. You do have a valid point about voter responsibility, but there was a bit more than just that at play in this election. One of my oldest friends is married to a Mormon. His father-in-law has a good amount of pull in the church. When one of the other members of his church found out he was voting against Prop 8, he was warned that he might lose his Temple Recommend as a result. He told them to go fuck themselves (well, not in so many words - he is a Mormon, after all) and they backed down, but I imagine there’s a fair number of Mormons who, under a similar threat, wouldn’t show the same intestinal fortitude. And with the vote as close as it is, that just might have been enough to tip the balance. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2008, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prop-8-ca/471250/165 "2008-11-05T23:56:11Z")
I’m so very sorry. It’s not much, but I take comfort in knowing that before too long these people who supported this will be in the same position as those who opposed intergration. Like **story** said, gay rights _will_ win. That’s not a maybe, only a when. Here’s to hoping the time in the interim won’t be as painful as it has potential to be. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prop-8-ca/471250/166 "2008-11-06T00:05:27Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > Agreed, meatsock. A loss agreed to and mandated by…da-da-DA…THE PEOPLE! By people who are **scum**. Vermin who voted to forbid a right to homosexuals that they DO allow to, say, serial killers - which rather shows what their opinion is of homosexuals. This vote demonstrates once again the vileness of the American public. > [@buttonjockey308](#): > > No doubt there were bigots, no doubt there were zealots, no doubt there were right-wing nutjobs, snake handlers, survivalists and biblical literalists, but all of these people were your fellow Americans who just may hold different, honest beliefs than you, and failing to respect those and failing to attempt to change them with honest, open and real communication is going to doom this initiative to failure every time it comes to the ballot. Honest ? So what ? Honestly evil is still evil. It will fail because they are all - every single person who voted for this - bigots. > [@buttonjockey308](#): > > What you don’t KNOW about those people, is if the nutters were in the majority. You don’t KNOW if the zeal, the ignorance and the fear you ascribe to the decision was the motivating factor. We could fill Grant Park with the things we don’t KNOW about why these initiatives failed. it failed because the majority of voters are bigots. I don’t care in the slightest why. > [@buttonjockey308](#): > > What we do know is that there’s work to be done and progress yet to be made. Obama’s victory was a victory for the America you seem to have given up on. That kind of choice, the choice the majority of us made to change the climate of our country, has given voice to the future of progressive thought. No, it’s not. He’s just a moderate right winger who will slow our slide to fascism and/or destruction a little, at best. He’s no “progressive”. > [@Mahna\_Mahna](#): > > I’m so sorry, America. If Christianity is supposed to be about love, tolerance and forgiveness, then these sheep have truly strayed far from their shepherd. ☹ Except, of course, it’s not. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prop-8-ca/471250/167 "2008-11-06T00:07:53Z")
> [@Chef\_Troy](#): > > Personally, I think everyone has this issue exactly backwards. > > The way to go about this isn’t to let state government, or any government, sanction gay marriage. It’s to **stop** letting government sanction **straight** marriages. > > No, no, hear me out. > > It’s not the government’s purview to extend or withhold its “blessing” (for lack of a better word) over what is essentially a religious matter. The sensible thing, in my opinion, would be to consider the spiritual/religious aspects and the legal aspects of marriage separately. In other words, civil unions for EVERYONE, gay or straight, would be all the government offered. You would then have a separate MARRIAGE ceremony performed by the church of your choice. > > A given religion might refuse to perform marriage ceremonies for gay couples, but other religions would be happy to do it. Either way, it wouldn’t matter because marriage would have no legal implications - it would be a religious sacrament, nothing more. Don’t you realize, though, that then the homophobic bigots would just turn around and use that as a way to argue that those dirty faggots really did destroy decent, Christian marriages? I see what you’re saying, but I don’t think that would work. ☹ **groman** -notice that all three of those videos had comments disabled? Hmmm… (Sadly, my father used to belong to Knights of Columbus\*. Damn bastards-so this is what they’ve become?) To my friends in California-right now, my heart goes out to you-I can’t imagine how horrid this has to be, and I wish you all the strength and luck I possibly can to fight this thing. \*Catholic version of the Free Masons, basically. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prop-8-ca/471250/168 "2008-11-06T00:09:02Z")
**Der Trihs** , please stop supporting gay rights. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prop-8-ca/471250/169 "2008-11-06T00:17:38Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > **Der Trihs** , please stop supporting gay rights. You are confusing support for one thing with scorn for another. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prop-8-ca/471250/170 "2008-11-06T00:33:12Z")
> [@Ensign\_Edison](#): > > If you truly don’t mind that he thinks Jesus doesn’t want us to have equal rights (so strongly that even his personal devotion to equal rights doesn’t make him question this), or don’t worry that the pandering everyone says he’s doing when he says that isn’t going to end up cutting the other way as a result, then there’s no compromise for you, no. (But even if there were, I’ve repeatedly said it’s not necessarily wrong, and may sometimes be necessary, to compromise on such issues.) Actually, I’m going to change what I said. To be honest, there is a compromise here; I’d prefer a candidate who openly stated his unabashed support for equal marriage rights. But I’d prefer lots of things, things which would prevent any candidate from coming anywhere near office as it stands. Anything short of perfection is a compromise, yeah, but so what? Perfection is never on the table. So… whatever. For me, Obama was a compromise in many ways. But on this specific issue, it’s just about the tiniest possible one; poor pandering words (even quite possibly sincere), but necessary ones, and good actions to more than offset them. So, what’s your point? Let us (those who felt Obama was a compromise, those who felt he wasn’t, those who supported McCain, all of us) stew in our outrage in peace. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prop-8-ca/471250/171 "2008-11-06T00:33:13Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You are confusing support for one thing with scorn for another. Ah, but the enemy of his enemy is… Hmm. Also his enemy, as it turns out. Not quite sure how that works. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prop-8-ca/471250/172 "2008-11-06T00:40:14Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Ah, but the enemy of his enemy is… > > Hmm. Also his enemy, as it turns out. Not quite sure how that works. **Der Trihs** is a special case. _Everyone_ is his enemy. His dog probably thinks he’s an asshole. ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prop-8-ca/471250/173 "2008-11-06T00:44:24Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > Actually, I’m going to change what I said. To be honest, there is a compromise here; I’d prefer a candidate who openly stated his unabashed support for equal marriage rights. But I’d prefer lots of things, things which would prevent any candidate from coming anywhere near office as it stands. Anything short of perfection is a compromise, yeah, but so what? Perfection is never on the table. So… whatever. For me, Obama was a compromise in many ways. But on this specific issue, it’s just about the tiniest possible one; poor pandering words (even quite possibly sincere), but necessary ones, and good actions to more than offset them. So, what’s your point? Let us stew in our outrage in peace. [I](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10406919&postcount=81) [have](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10407034&postcount=88) [made](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10407129&postcount=95) [my](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10408015&postcount=133) [point](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10408455&postcount=144) clear over and over in this thread. Including in the post you replied to, though via an edit so it’s possible you missed that I said (yet again) I didn’t think compromise was bad, but was disputing the claim that no compromise was made. I do appreciate that you took the time to respond to my points instead of just attacking me, and I hope Jodi won’t be too hard on you for taking the apparently outrageous stance that compromise is involved in choosing a candidate. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prop-8-ca/471250/174 "2008-11-06T00:45:23Z")
> [@Apollyon](#): > > Amend “ **would** then have a separate MARRIAGE ceremony” to “ **could** then have…” and you’ve got yourself a deal. From me at least. 🙂 > > When same-sex marriage and/or civil unions were under discussion in NZ this was exactly the approach I though the govt. should take; get out of the marriage business altogether and limit themselves to the purely legal/contractual aspects of powers of attorney, property division, child support, etc. Get out of the religious aspects completely. (And we don’t even have a formal separation of church and State). > > For what little it’s worth: my deepest sympathies on Prop 8. I sincerely hope this is resolved, and soon. I hope it gets resolved too, and I also would like for government to finally realize they need to stay the hell out of our personal business. For those who think this was a good thing, here’s a STFU GTFO DIAF and it comes from the heart. ---
**Author:** ![NinjaChick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@NinjaChick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinjaChick)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prop-8-ca/471250/175 "2008-11-06T00:51:44Z")
Ah, yes. I had a brief moment of ‘hope’ last night. Now I’ve remembered that the majority of Americans are hateful, bigoted, worthless smears of shit who only care what Pastor Fuckface says the Big Boomy Skyvoice wants. I’ve remembered why I loathe people who willingly associate with religious institutions. I’ve remembered that if I should want to get married I’d probably have to move to Massachusetts. The only thing that has changed, in a broad view, is that instead of making people second-class citizens based on race we’re now doing it based on sexual orientation. To people who think this’ll be fixed in the next few years: it won’t. How long did it take from the founding of this country until blacks were treated as equals? And they had sit-ins, they had hundreds of thousands of people marching on Washington, they had leaders like MLK and Jesse Jackson, and perhaps most importantly they had riots. The gay rights marriage lacks any leadership or real movement; it’s a bunch of lawyers sitting in a conference room. For fuck’s sake, we should all - Americans, all of us - be sickened with our complacency. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prop-8-ca/471250/176 "2008-11-06T01:00:44Z")
\*\* > [@Ensign\_Edison](#): > > [I](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10406919&postcount=81) [have](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10407034&postcount=88) [made](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10407129&postcount=95) [my](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10408015&postcount=133) [point](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10408455&postcount=144) clear over and over in this thread. Including in the post you replied to, though via an edit so it’s possible you missed that I said (yet again) I didn’t think compromise was bad, but was disputing the claim that no compromise was made. I do appreciate that you took the time to respond to my points instead of just attacking me, and I hope Jodi won’t be too hard on you for taking the apparently outrageous stance that compromise is involved in choosing a candidate. Thing is, **Edison** , the way you’ve defined it, a compromise is \*always \*involved in choosing \*any \*candidate. Either you intend something specific by pointing out \*this \*compromise on \*this \*candidate to \*these \*people in \*this \*thread, or your statement is a meaningless tautology. Despite your insistence otherwise, it sure appears as though you’re trying, albeit in a characteristically passive-aggressive way, to pick a fight with those who generally support your cause (but not with the fervor you’d like). But no doubt I’m wrong again, completely off the mark. Just like everyone else in this thread and several others in which we’ve done a similar dance. ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prop-8-ca/471250/177 "2008-11-06T01:24:56Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > \*\* > > Thing is, **Edison** , the way you’ve defined it, a compromise is \*always \*involved in choosing \*any \*candidate… Once again, as I’ve now said countless times and even linked to several examples of, I was responding to the claim that there’s no compromise at all. I have also repeatedly affirmed your point above. I hope Jodi, who was screaming at me that there was no compromise and nobody else thinks so, isn’t too hard on you either. ---
**Author:** ![EastCoastPearl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/aeb1de/32.png) [@EastCoastPearl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EastCoastPearl)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prop-8-ca/471250/178 "2008-11-06T01:26:24Z")
This pisses me off. > **[2026 Election Results, Latest News & Updates | Fox News Elections Center](https://www.foxnews.com/elections)** > > Track 2026 midterm elections, polls, and primaries with Fox News. Get live updates, projections, and results for the General Election on November 3rd, 2026. > [@](#): > > [ProtectMarriage.com](http://ProtectMarriage.com) sent a mailer with quotes the Illinois senator made this year – indicating that he thinks marriage should be limited to a woman and man. I was greeted this morning by a voicemail left at around 7pm last night basically saying the same things that this bullshit mailer said, using actual soundbytes from Obama interviews. It made me want to scream. I had the strongest urge to jump the curb and run over all the prop 8 supporters toting their signs on practically every corner in my neighborhood for the past few weeks. I’m wishing I’d actually done it now (the fantasy at least makes me feel a little better). Vienna Teng’s song “City Hall” always made me cry, but it will just make me cry harder now. Don’t let them take it away again. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prop-8-ca/471250/179 "2008-11-06T01:33:13Z")
> [@Ensign\_Edison](#): > > Once again, as I’ve now said countless times and even linked to several examples of, I was responding to the claim that there’s no compromise at all. I have also repeatedly affirmed your point above. I hope Jodi, who was screaming at me that there was no compromise and nobody else thinks so, isn’t too hard on you either. See, this nicely explains your problem: If you think for one second I was “screaming” or “shrieking” at you, you clearly just perceive and define things differently from the rest of us, and should be treated with the same tolerance as anyone else suffering from a cognitive disability. Good job! And I love your tinfoil hat! ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prop-8-ca/471250/180 "2008-11-06T01:38:39Z")
Are you aware that the use of caps is generally considered ‘yelling’ online, and that you used them repeatedly in your vitriol-laced posts to me, Jodi? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prop-8-ca/471250.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prop-8-ca/471250.md?page=10)