# Propaganda Chief Takes Helm at NPR **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 10, 2019, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/propaganda-chief-takes-helm-at-npr/840009 "2019-09-10T21:13:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/propaganda-chief-takes-helm-at-npr/840009/121 "2019-09-16T20:14:49Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > The government has created the need for the passport. There was a time when people could travel between countries unmolested. > > That’s like saying mob protection is a value-added service. So why do you think “the government” did a bad thing in requiring passports? They provide identification that is universally accepted. Without them, visitors to foreign lands could be subject to imprisonment if the host government thinks they might be spies. Travelers who intend on committing crimes on foreign soil (such as smuggling) or escaping justice would be detained before they could leave. What’s the drawback? Inconvenience? What makes you think people could travel between countries unmolested? Throughout all time, natives were usually wary of strangers, and could easily kill them, take their loot, and leave their bodies for the vultures. The whole history of war is based on culture clash. And you so don’t like violence. What makes you think everybody in the olden days were trustworthy and peaceful? After “In the beginning,” Genesis describes battle between tribes. There were war casualties thousands of years before there were liberals and conservatives. Do you ever venture outside your right-wing cocoon? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/propaganda-chief-takes-helm-at-npr/840009/122 "2019-09-16T20:25:34Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I see. So in your world, passports would not be necessary, and people could travel freely between countries without being molested? > > Are driver’s licenses similarly not required in your world? Anyone can just get behind the wheel of a car and start motoring away? That would be up to the owners of the roads. I would assume there would be some sort of credential. What we wouldn’t have would be armed gangs in clown cars harassing people and escalating situations needlessly. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Fighting fires creates value (or reduces the loss of value). So did the elimination of smallpox. So the govt creates value if it confiscates $10billion to snuff out a campfire? There is no economic calculation that is possible because there is no demonstrated preference. Economic actors demonstrate preference when they engage in voluntary transactions, that is how we know value is created. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Except by Neanderthals and sabre-toothed cats. No it was actually not that long ago. Pre-WWI. That is how fast our society has devolved. Governments have destroyed social trust and cohesion. > [@Slash1972](#): > > I just checked - free condoms are available at my county health department. I value condoms more than my time in getting them - value added. > > Unless you believe the government created the need for condoms. How do you know that the other side has not seen a destruction of value that eclipses your perceived gain in value. By your logic, Bugsy adds value by bopping the butcher on the head and handing out cutlets to neighborhood kids. ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/propaganda-chief-takes-helm-at-npr/840009/123 "2019-09-16T20:26:40Z")
no one remembers they had semi-official passports called “conduct books” in the 19/20tht century ? in which you had to have various places/officials fill them out saying you paid your hotel resturant bills didn’t get drunk and cause fights ect … A lot of places and businesses required them … ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/propaganda-chief-takes-helm-at-npr/840009/124 "2019-09-16T20:28:55Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > So why do you think “the government” did a bad thing in requiring passports? They provide identification that is universally accepted. Without them, visitors to foreign lands could be subject to imprisonment if the host government thinks they might be spies. Travelers who intend on committing crimes on foreign soil (such as smuggling) or escaping justice would be detained before they could leave. What’s the drawback? Inconvenience? > > What makes you think people could travel between countries unmolested? Throughout all time, natives were usually wary of strangers, and could easily kill them, take their loot, and leave their bodies for the vultures. The whole history of war is based on culture clash. And you so don’t like violence. > > What makes you think everybody in the olden days were trustworthy and peaceful? After “In the beginning,” Genesis describes battle between tribes. There were war casualties thousands of years before there were liberals and conservatives. Do you ever venture outside your right-wing cocoon? Of course you need to keep your head on swivel in another country. You need to do that in the US in some places. Fact is, passports were unnecessary for a long time. Scary things may have happened, but they still happen with passports. The only difference is that it is another government regulation to be hassled by. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/propaganda-chief-takes-helm-at-npr/840009/125 "2019-09-16T20:30:09Z")
> [@nightshadea](#): > > no one remembers they had semi-official passports called “conduct books” in the 19/20tht century ? in which you had to have various places/officials fill them out saying you paid your hotel resturant bills didn’t get drunk and cause fights ect … > > A lot of places and businesses required them … Sounds like an excellent free-market solution. Thank you for your contribution. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/propaganda-chief-takes-helm-at-npr/840009/126 "2019-09-16T20:40:05Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > No it was actually not that long ago. Pre-WWI. That is how fast our society has devolved. Governments have destroyed social trust and cohesion. I know, I remember how awesome it was when nobody had a government before WWI. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/propaganda-chief-takes-helm-at-npr/840009/127 "2019-09-16T20:51:21Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > The government has created the need for the passport. There was a time when people could travel between countries unmolested. There was a time when very few people traveled between countries at all, or for that matter a few miles from their birthplace. And those that did were relatively wealthy, and often had some letter or other means of identification issued by their government. It surprises me to learn that you are in favor of completely free immigration between countries. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/propaganda-chief-takes-helm-at-npr/840009/128 "2019-09-16T20:53:17Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Sounds like an excellent free-market solution. Thank you for your contribution. How is this a free-market solution? What happens if you DON’T fill those out? Or what happens if I just have my sister fill mine out? And I noticed you didn’t answer whether or not you think everyone should be able to move between countries unmolested. Could you answer that one? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/propaganda-chief-takes-helm-at-npr/840009/129 "2019-09-16T21:02:05Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I know, I remember how awesome it was when nobody had a government before WWI. I never knew you to be deliberately dense. A pity. > [@Colibri](#): > > There was a time when very few people traveled between countries at all, or for that matter a few miles from their birthplace. And those that did were relatively wealthy, and often had some letter or other means of identification issued by their government. > > It surprises me to learn that you are in favor of completely free immigration between countries. You are easily surprised. I have said as much any time the subject came up. Passports did not come about as a service to newly mobile citizens. They came about out of a desire for government to exercise control over travelers. > [@Slash1972](#): > > How is this a free-market solution? What happens if you DON’T fill those out? Or what happens if I just have my sister fill mine out? > > And I noticed you didn’t answer whether or not you think everyone should be able to move between countries unmolested. Could you answer that one? There should be no national borders as currently conceived. Property owners shall have the right to admit or refuse to admit anyone as they see fit. I would imagine highway owners would allow passage to anyone as long as they didn’t cause trouble. I see no reason travelers would be molested in a free market. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/propaganda-chief-takes-helm-at-npr/840009/130 "2019-09-16T21:07:08Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > There should be no national borders as currently conceived. Property owners shall have the right to admit or refuse to admit anyone as they see fit. I would imagine highway owners would allow passage to anyone as long as they didn’t cause trouble. I see no reason travelers would be molested in a free market. Who or what authority confirms that someone is a property owner? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/propaganda-chief-takes-helm-at-npr/840009/131 "2019-09-16T21:09:24Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Who or what authority confirms that someone is a property owner? If the property is in dispute, private courts will decide ownership. Same as now but much more efficient and with mechanisms that drive the best decision-makers to the top instead of the best politicians. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/propaganda-chief-takes-helm-at-npr/840009/132 "2019-09-16T21:12:15Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > If the property is in dispute, private courts will decide ownership. Same as now but much more efficient and with mechanisms that drive the best decision-makers to the top instead of the best politicians. Who or what entities oversees and ensures private courts are being just. Who or what entity evaluated credentials of those who serve on this courts. Who or what entity provides the evidence to determine true ownership? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/propaganda-chief-takes-helm-at-npr/840009/133 "2019-09-16T21:13:59Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Who or what entities oversees and ensures private courts are being just. > > Who or what entity evaluated credentials of those who serve on this courts. > > Who or what entity provides the evidence to determine true ownership? Who or what entity enforces court decisions? ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/propaganda-chief-takes-helm-at-npr/840009/134 "2019-09-16T21:15:25Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > That would be up to the owners of the roads. I would assume there would be some sort of credential. What we wouldn’t have would be armed gangs in clown cars harassing people and escalating situations needlessly. Is it the government that prevents road owners from hiring armed gangs in clown cars? If not the government then what? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/propaganda-chief-takes-helm-at-npr/840009/135 "2019-09-16T21:18:16Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > If the property is in dispute, private courts will decide ownership. Same as now but much more efficient and with mechanisms that drive the best decision-makers to the top instead of the best politicians. This is the formation of a government. It’s just one that’s not based on equal participation or consent of the governed. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/propaganda-chief-takes-helm-at-npr/840009/136 "2019-09-16T21:19:38Z")
I was aware that **Will** was a bit of a loon, but I had no idea he was quite _that_ crazy. I’m out. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/propaganda-chief-takes-helm-at-npr/840009/137 "2019-09-16T21:54:47Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Who or what entities oversees and ensures private courts are being just. > > Who or what entity evaluated credentials of those who serve on this courts. > > Who or what entity provides the evidence to determine true ownership? Okay, fine, so we’ll need a _little bit_ of government. But that’s _it_! No more! ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/propaganda-chief-takes-helm-at-npr/840009/138 "2019-09-16T22:06:17Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > You are easily surprised. I have said as much any time the subject came up. I avoid reading your posts as much as possible since I don’t enjoy constantly slapping my forehead.:smack: Since completely free immigration would cause the collapse of the world economy, I’m surprised anyone outside the poorest countries of the third world would be in favor of it. But if anyone were loony enough to think that, I guess it would be you.:smack: ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/propaganda-chief-takes-helm-at-npr/840009/139 "2019-09-16T22:25:29Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Okay, fine, so we’ll need a _little bit_ of government. But that’s _it_! No more! How about if everyone in the area gives their input to help choose who should do these jobs, and instead everyone paying them directly, we each just kick in some money, and someone else distributes it to the people doing the work. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2019, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/propaganda-chief-takes-helm-at-npr/840009/140 "2019-09-16T22:59:38Z")
People like \*\*WillFarnaby \*\*are like fluorine-breathing aliens coming to Earth and saying, “You know what’s wrong with your planet? All that oxygen. That shit’s poisonous.” And no matter how much we try to explain to them that we need oxygen to live, they just won’t listen. Because they’re idiots. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/propaganda-chief-takes-helm-at-npr/840009.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/propaganda-chief-takes-helm-at-npr/840009.md?page=8)