# Propaganda Films in Free Societies **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 15, 2003, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/propaganda-films-in-free-societies/213429 "2003-11-15T15:25:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2003, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/propaganda-films-in-free-societies/213429/1 "2003-11-15T15:25:10Z")
Cecil’s column on Potemkin villages prompted me to write this. Most of us know about [Battleship Potemkin](http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0015648/) , and [Triumph of the Will](http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0025913/) . Both of these films are often lauded for their cinematic merits, while condemned for being naked propaganda for the Soviet Union (in fact, I had always thought Potemkin Villages were a Soviet device, named for the film) and Nazi Germany, respectively. But has Hollywood ever been conscripted (or volunteered) into making such propaganda for the United States (or another western democracy, such as the UK)? Has any met the artistic Standards of the above films? I can’t think of any. the closest I get is **Mr. Smith Goes to Washington** , which is actually quite critical of Washington, although it ultimate lionizes the American system. What’s our **Triumph of the Will**? Yeah, sure, there are educational films from the 40’s and 50’s, but they _suck_. Ain’t no one going to be talking about there contributions to art. Besides, they seemed mainly to be short features, and not for nationwide distribution. If there aren’t any, why is this so? Is it a consequence of freedom of speech, free market economies, or what? Or is it simply that by the time movies came around, the US was already well established, while the USSR and Nazi Germany were still infant nations when their seminal films were made? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2003, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/propaganda-films-in-free-societies/213429/2 "2003-11-15T15:36:51Z")
I consider _The Green Berets_ a propaganda film, but not nearly as artistic as the ones you mentioned. During WWII there were several war films that portrayed America’s Moral Superiority. _Strategic Air Command_ wasn’t a propaganda film _per se_, but it did show how a Patriotic American gave up his promising career for the good of the country. ---
**Author:** ![MrSarcasticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b487fb/32.png) [@MrSarcasticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrSarcasticus)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2003, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/propaganda-films-in-free-societies/213429/3 "2003-11-15T15:52:53Z")
The full-length version of _December 7th_ has to come close. And it had John Ford and Gregg Toland behind it. Not the most politically correct film nowadays, either. [http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0035790/combined](http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0035790/combined) ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2003, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/propaganda-films-in-free-societies/213429/4 "2003-11-15T15:59:14Z")
What about that made-for-TV feature on September 11? ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2003, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/propaganda-films-in-free-societies/213429/5 "2003-11-15T17:01:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Menocchio \* > But has Hollywood ever been conscripted (or volunteered) into making such propaganda for the United States (or another western democracy, such as the UK)? Has any met the artistic Standards of the above films? I can’t think of any. the closest I get is **Mr. Smith Goes to Washington** , which is actually quite critical of Washington, although it ultimate lionizes the American system. What’s our **Triumph of the Will**? Well, it’s not a Hollywood film, but the British film _In Which We Serve_ is sometimes held up as a Western answer to _Triumph of the Will_. At least it was in a cinema appreciation class I once took. I suppose that there would be many examples–even _Casablanca_ could be considered a WWII propaganda film, I guess. There are other less-memorable ones that come to mind, too. But for the “in your face, Hitler!” kind of stuff, you’d probably have to look at things like cartoons. Warner Brothers did a number of anti-Nazi cartoons, with titles like _Der Fuehrer’s Face_, after a popular song of the day. Even Disney got into the act–I seem to recall reading that Donald Duck portrayed a maniacal “Nutzi” in some cartoons. As for non-war propaganda films celebrating democracy or freedom, the only ones I can think of are the classroom films that the OP mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![Iteki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/eada6e/32.png) [@Iteki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iteki)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2003, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/propaganda-films-in-free-societies/213429/6 "2003-11-15T17:37:57Z")
Doubtful if this counts, but there are some adverts running in Sweden at the moment that are basically artistic propoganda about how nice it is to pay taxes. They have a deliberate (imho) propogandic feel, I am assuming the art-directors are being cool and ironic 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Stentor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Stentor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stentor)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2003, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/propaganda-films-in-free-societies/213429/7 "2003-11-15T18:10:20Z")
The Pentagon will cooperate and be quite helpful to filmmakers that meet certain conditions. One of these is that the military must be portrayed positively. So if a film has really good footage of jets or carriers, or it’f ilmed on location at a military base it can be considered semi-propaganda. I’ve noticed that in movies about sailors in particular we are generally portrayed as being either completely heroic and devoted to our work, or a lovable bunch of rascals who triumph in the end. It think the closest I’ve ever seen a movie come to protraying military members realistically was in “Band of Brothers,” which included a part where two characters stole a motorcycle from the Army, and also portrayed one of the CO’s in an extremely unflattering light. The other type of pro-military propaganda we have in America are Airshows, tours we give to the public occasionally, and demonstrations of things like parachuting. I’ve worked on these before, and one would not believe the amount of preparation we engage in. We once painted the entire port side of our ship the day after we pulled in from 30+ days at sea in order to make the ship look good as a backdrop for an Admiral’s retirement ceremony. We were given the next day off so that there wouldn’t be anyone walking around on deck while the television cameras were filming. If you, as a member of the general public ever have any contact with someone in the military, chances are he or she was hand-picked to appear before the public. ---
**Author:** ![Stentor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Stentor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stentor)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2003, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/propaganda-films-in-free-societies/213429/8 "2003-11-15T18:12:14Z")
Damnation! I should have previewed, but that’s a new paragraph begining with “The other type of pro-military . . .” ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2003, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/propaganda-films-in-free-societies/213429/9 "2003-11-15T18:48:04Z")
**Red Dawn** ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2003, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/propaganda-films-in-free-societies/213429/10 "2003-11-15T19:40:22Z")
**Memphis Belle**. (The real one; not the one with John Lithgow.) It was part of the "Why We Fight series. ---
**Author:** ![Katisha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bcef8e/32.png) [@Katisha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Katisha)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2003, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/propaganda-films-in-free-societies/213429/11 "2003-11-15T19:49:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Menocchio \* > \*\*(or another western democracy, such as the UK)? \*\* How about Olivier’s _Henry V_? 😉 (Which is a brilliant film in its own right, of course, but it does leave out pretty much all of the more dubious bits of the play…which makes sense, as it was made during World War II and all.) ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Wang-Ka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/master_wang-ka/32/3325_2.png) [@Master\_Wang-Ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Master_Wang-Ka)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2003, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/propaganda-films-in-free-societies/213429/12 "2003-11-15T21:56:00Z")
“Red Dawn” was a propaganda film, in that it vilified communists in general as being part of a worldwide conspiracy to redo everything Hitler did, but done RIGHT this time, so to speak. “Top Gun” could be considered a propaganda film, if you regard a “recruiting film” as propaganda, which I do. For a while, there, in the eighties, seemed like a whole generation of young men suddenly were going to join the Navy and become fighter pilots… ---
**Author:** ![DreadCthulhu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DreadCthulhu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DreadCthulhu)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2003, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/propaganda-films-in-free-societies/213429/13 "2003-11-15T22:31:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Johnny L.A. \* > \*\* > During WWII there were several war films that portrayed America’s Moral Superiority. > \*\* Considering who we were fighting (and heck, even one our allies), being on the morally superior side wouldn’t be that hard . . . ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2003, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/propaganda-films-in-free-societies/213429/14 "2003-11-15T22:32:00Z")
Has anyone mentioned Chaplin’s “The Great Dictator” It’s one of the greatest satires ever and a propaganda piece as well. Work on it began well before the US entry into the war. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2003, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/propaganda-films-in-free-societies/213429/15 "2003-11-16T01:43:50Z")
> [@](#): > > **DreadCthulhu** : Considering who we were fighting (and heck, even one our allies), being on the morally superior side wouldn’t be that hard . . . It’s interesting how in a matter of years our enemies _almost_ always seem to become our friends. People who would happily have slaughtered each other 30 years ago, sit down and talk about it over beers. Tell the survivors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki about the moral superiority of the U.S. At the moment, American POWs from WWII are protesting the treatment of the prisoners in Guantanamo Bay. So is Amnesty International. The Red Cross isn’t too happy with us either. Different countries, different customs, but the same basic human nature. ---
**Author:** ![psychomonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/dec6dc/32.png) [@psychomonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychomonkey)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2003, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/propaganda-films-in-free-societies/213429/16 "2003-11-16T02:19:26Z")
If I remember correctly, there was a book out a few years ago about the government’s influence of Hollywood some time ago. It mentioned the C.I.A. requesting that there be more minorities in the films to show the harmony and diversity in America rather than the rabid racism in the South that the Soviets were playing up. If I remember right they also had a hand in making the ending to “The Grapes of Wrath” less depressing than the book as a morale booster. Hopefully somone will come along with the title. ---
**Author:** ![MrSarcasticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b487fb/32.png) [@MrSarcasticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrSarcasticus)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2003, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/propaganda-films-in-free-societies/213429/17 "2003-11-16T05:42:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zoe \* > \*\* > > Tell the survivors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki about the moral superiority of the U.S. > > \*\* Tell that poor country about Unit 731. They don’t seem to know too much about it today. Don’t worry, there’s a movie. Propaganda or exploitation? I dunno, who am I to say?: [http://www.epinions.com/mvie-review-7965-9C2C0F2-392C2EF1-prod1](http://www.epinions.com/mvie-review-7965-9C2C0F2-392C2EF1-prod1) ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2003, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/propaganda-films-in-free-societies/213429/18 "2003-11-16T08:22:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jomo Mojo \* > \*\*What about that made-for-TV feature on September 11? \*\* This was exactly the movie I first thought about…[DC 9/11: Time of Crisis](http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0353042/) was PURE propoganda, not to mention pegged high up on the “Horseshit Meter.” It started out okay. But once they started portraying GWB as the “President Who Could Do No Wrong”, and started making half-assed justifications for the war in Iraq (“Yeah, Saddam probably wasn’t behind the attacks, but so what! People need an enemy to hate!”) and making futile attempts to belittle all the conspiracy theories about Cheney being the REAL person calling the shots (hey, if it’s not true…WHY EVEN BRING IT UP?!?) – well, at least I was thankful to live in a country with enough freedom (so far) to change the fucking channel. And then piss all over their bullshit movie in a public forum. I read that the network had to “tone down” all the pro-Republican backslapping and Bush-praising from the original script. My GOD! How bad WAS it? Did GWB walk around in a white robe wearing a wreath of olive branches, while the whole Cabinet bowed and kissed his feet? THE HORROR!!! In addition, I suppose all those “Duck And Cover” filmstrips from the Cold War might count, though they weren’t really movies per se. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2003, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/propaganda-films-in-free-societies/213429/19 "2003-11-16T09:05:51Z")
Well heck, if stuff made _during wartime_ counts, I can think of a couple right off the bat…made by Disney, no less. The first is [Education for Death](http://disneyshorts.toonzone.net/years/1943/educationfordeath.html). The second was [Der Fuehrer’s Face](http://w1.721.telia.com/~u72102004/painfulcinema/reviews/derfuehrersface/derfuehrersface.html). (The latter starring [Donald Duck](http://w1.721.telia.com/~u72102004/painfulcinema/reviews/derfuehrersface/face35.jpg)) Although they aren’t so much lauding America and the Allies, as they are condemning and lampooning Germany and the Axis. “Education for Death,” from what I hear, may end up getting released on DVD shortly. “Der Fuehrer’s Face,” on the other hand, will likely never again see the light of day. (Officially, at least. You might be able to download an illicit copy, somewhere or another) ---
**Author:** ![Cabbage](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@Cabbage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cabbage)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2003, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/propaganda-films-in-free-societies/213429/20 "2003-11-16T10:52:33Z")
> [@](#): > > “Education for Death,” from what I hear, may end up getting released on DVD shortly. “Der Fuehrer’s Face,” on the other hand, will likely never again see the light of day. As I understand it, _both_ are actually expected to be on the DVD, due out this coming May. I don’t know anything for a fact, however. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/propaganda-films-in-free-societies/213429.md?page=2)