# Proper Grammar: Asian names and commas. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 17, 2008, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proper-grammar-asian-names-and-commas/468431 "2008-10-17T19:30:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2008, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proper-grammar-asian-names-and-commas/468431/21 "2008-10-18T04:27:49Z")
Not offended. Just frustrated. Mostly not from the thread, either. I’m sure. No worries. I’ve only got another week or so left here in the Middle East, err Southwest Asia… then I’ll be back to my charming self, promise. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2008, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proper-grammar-asian-names-and-commas/468431/22 "2008-10-18T04:31:11Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > Not offended. Just frustrated. Mostly not from the thread, either. I’m sure. > > No worries. I’ve only got another week or so left here in the Middle East, err Southwest Asia… then I’ll be back to my charming self, promise. I suppose this is not a good time to point out that you misspelled Colombia earlier. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Rico](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rico/32/3582_2.png) [@Rico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rico)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2008, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proper-grammar-asian-names-and-commas/468431/23 "2008-10-18T04:35:28Z")
\ The proposed title was too long, **Bear**. Gotcha covered on your grammar, however. \ ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2008, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proper-grammar-asian-names-and-commas/468431/24 "2008-10-18T04:38:22Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > I suppose this is not a good time to point out that you misspelled Colombia earlier. 😃 Hey! I got “homogenous” right, though. ---
**Author:** ![Hellestal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hellestal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hellestal)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2008, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proper-grammar-asian-names-and-commas/468431/25 "2008-10-18T04:48:54Z")
For comedy’s sake, I think it’s also worth mentioning MLB’s lack of a system. SUZUKI Ichiro has “Ichiro” on the back of his jersey, and MATSUZAKA Daisuke “Daisuke”. But MATSUI Hideki has “Matsui”. No rhyme, no reason. They just use whatever and go with it. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2008, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proper-grammar-asian-names-and-commas/468431/26 "2008-10-18T04:58:33Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > Hey! I got “homogenous” right, though. Actually, it’s conventionally spelled ‘homogeneous’, though your mistake is common. ---
**Author:** ![AdmiralCrunch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6f9a4e/32.png) [@AdmiralCrunch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AdmiralCrunch)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2008, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proper-grammar-asian-names-and-commas/468431/27 "2008-10-18T05:09:49Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > I still can’t go along with Asia = East/Southeast Asia exclusively. It’s not Asia = East/Southeast Asia. It’s Asian usually = from East/Southeast Asia. That’s why people use context. Just like American doesn’t exclusively refer to people from the continents of North and South America, or antisemitic applies to Jewish people rather than all Semitic peoples. In fact, most of the time, people neglect to use geographically accurate terms to describe other groups of people. Because Oriental is considered offensive(in the US), the less geographically accurate term Asian is used to describe the same group of people that was recently called Oriental. Back to the OP; Surprisingly, I think we’ve gotten it right a couple times. We refer to Josef Stalin as Stalin and Mao Zedong as Mao. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2008, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proper-grammar-asian-names-and-commas/468431/28 "2008-10-18T05:10:16Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > Actually, it’s conventionally spelled ‘homogeneous’, though your mistake is common. I wasn’t gonna say! ---
**Author:** ![Hellestal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hellestal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hellestal)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2008, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proper-grammar-asian-names-and-commas/468431/29 "2008-10-18T05:12:12Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > Actually, it’s conventionally spelled ‘homogeneous’, though your mistake is common. It’s not a mistake. The [conventions of language](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/homogenous) allow both spellings, though homogeneous is generally preferred. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2008, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proper-grammar-asian-names-and-commas/468431/30 "2008-10-18T05:23:07Z")
> [@AdmiralCrunch](#): > > Because Oriental is considered offensive(in the US), the less geographically accurate term Asian is used to describe the same group of people that was recently called Oriental. There have been whole threads debating how offensive Oriental is. I never used to think it was. Granted, growing up in West Texas, you’d hear much worse terms, but when I lived in Hawaii, which has large Japanese, Chinese, Korean and Filipino populations, no one seemed to mind Oriental. ---
**Author:** ![Tabby\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tabby\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabby_Cat)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2008, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proper-grammar-asian-names-and-commas/468431/31 "2008-10-18T05:29:13Z")
Add to the fact that in the UK, plain “asian” would refer to people from the Indian subcontinent. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2008, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proper-grammar-asian-names-and-commas/468431/32 "2008-10-18T05:29:19Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > An interesting related question would be full Hispanic names, which are of the format “Dolores Maria Sanchez Garcia” where “Sanchez” is the normal patrilineal surname and “Garcia” the second, matrilineal surname. Listwise, I’d be inclined to render this “Sanchez Garcia, Dolores Maria” – is this S.O.P in such cases? Yes, it is. Also for Portuguese and Brazilian, who also have two surnames, who may or may not call themselves Hispanic (Portuguese usually don’t, many Brazilians do - remember that in Latin Hispania is the Iberian peninsula), and for whom the first surname is the matrilineal one. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2008, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proper-grammar-asian-names-and-commas/468431/33 "2008-10-18T05:56:52Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > If a Korean is introducing himself in English, he might give his personal name first, if he knows the convention and wants to avoid confusion. Which, ironically, can cause confusion. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2008, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proper-grammar-asian-names-and-commas/468431/34 "2008-10-18T09:57:25Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > There have been whole threads debating how offensive Oriental is. I never used to think it was. Granted, growing up in West Texas, you’d hear much worse terms, but when I lived in Hawaii, which has large Japanese, Chinese, Korean and Filipino populations, no one seemed to mind Oriental. Oriental is a rug is something that started in Berkeley in the 1960’s, took on some momentum in the 1990’s. Oddly enough, seems like the Asians in Hawaii have no problem with using the term Oriental to describe themselves. As to the OP, I usually capitalize the surname so it’s more clear. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2008, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proper-grammar-asian-names-and-commas/468431/35 "2008-10-18T10:31:38Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > If a Korean is introducing himself in English, he might give his personal name first, if he knows the convention and wants to avoid confusion. Anyone who knows that Korean surnames are traditionally given first will usually recognize the difference between a surname (there’s only a hundred or so) and a personal name anyway. And the vast majority are either Kim or “Park.” But when a Korean introduces HERself in English, she’ll almost always offer an anglophone version of her name, the most popular of which is “Jenny.” Korean women seem to think that Americans are incapable of pronouncing their true names. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2008, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proper-grammar-asian-names-and-commas/468431/36 "2008-10-18T10:38:27Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > An interesting related question would be full Hispanic names, which are of the format “Dolores Maria Sanchez Garcia” where “Sanchez” is the normal patrilineal surname and “Garcia” the second, matrilineal surname. Listwise, I’d be inclined to render this “Sanchez Garcia, Dolores Maria” – is this S.O.P in such cases? But then she gets married to Mr. Jones, and her name becomes Ma Lola Sanchez Garcia de Jones. Stuff that in your database and smoke it. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/96bed5/32.png) [@Cat\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Jones)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2008, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proper-grammar-asian-names-and-commas/468431/37 "2008-10-18T11:19:43Z")
hijack > [@guizot](#): > > But when a Korean introduces HERself in English, she’ll almost always offer an anglophone version of her name, the most popular of which is “Jenny.” Korean women **seem to think** that Americans are incapable of pronouncing their true names. Bolding mine - don’t take it personally, I can’t blame them myself. As the owner of a perfectly humdrum Welsh first name, chosen by the folks as being “easy to say and easy to spell” I can attest to how tiresome it can be constantly dealing with mis-pronunciation (& don’t let me start on spelling!). It must be nice to have a way out acceptable to both parties. I mean, picture the scene - You “Hi, I’m Guizot” t’other person “Nice to meet you Guizoth” A small difference true and Guizoth may be someone’s name but it is not _your_ name. So what do you do ? Correct them on the spot and risk making your first impression one of someone who is pushy/picky/dislikeable whilst making the other person uncomfortable ? … or leave it and risk not only being called by the wrong name for the duration of your dealings with that person but also their passing thie wrong name on to others ? Choose a moment later to correct them and have them feel bad for getting it wrong for so long ? And what about those who pronounce it correctly about a third of the time when they remember to “make the effort” ? Surely it’s better to be “Jenny” than “the Korean lass whose name I have to concentrate to get right” ? /hijack ---
**Author:** ![Crocodiles\_And\_Boulevards](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ee7513/32.png) [@Crocodiles\_And\_Boulevards](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crocodiles_And_Boulevards)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2008, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proper-grammar-asian-names-and-commas/468431/38 "2008-10-18T11:59:56Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > And the vast majority are either Kim or “Park.” > > But when a Korean introduces HERself in English, she’ll almost always offer an anglophone version of her name, the most popular of which is “Jenny.” Korean women seem to think that Americans are incapable of pronouncing their true names. Americans ARE incapable of pronouncing Korean names. Particularly female names. I find the popular Korean male names are much easier for the average American than the female names. Even the relatively simple names like Kim Sun-Hee are shortened to bastardizations like “Sunny” to keep things short and sweet. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2008, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proper-grammar-asian-names-and-commas/468431/39 "2008-10-18T13:16:04Z")
> [@Kendall Jackson](#): > > For comedy’s sake, I think it’s also worth mentioning MLB’s lack of a system. SUZUKI Ichiro has “Ichiro” on the back of his jersey, and MATSUZAKA Daisuke “Daisuke”. But MATSUI Hideki has “Matsui”. > > No rhyme, no reason. They just use whatever and go with it. I always thought this was player’s choice – IIRC, Ichiro likes to go by his first name in baseball contexts because Suzuki is such a common Japanese surname. EDIT: I wasn’t quite correct, but in the ballpark (yuk yuk). From Ichiro’s Wikipedia page: > [@](#): > > It was during the 1994 season that he began to use his given name, “Ichiro” instead of his family name, “Suzuki” on the back of his uniform. Suzuki is the second most common family name in Japan, and his manager introduced the idea as a publicity stunt to help create a new image for what had been a relatively weak team, as well as a way to distinguish their rising star. Initially, Ichiro disliked the practice and was embarrassed by it; “Ichiro” was a household name by the end of the season and he was flooded with endorsement offers. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2008, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proper-grammar-asian-names-and-commas/468431/40 "2008-10-19T01:16:29Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > Oriental is a rug is something that started in Berkeley in the 1960’s, took on some momentum in the 1990’s. Oddly enough, seems like the Asians in Hawaii have no problem with using the term Oriental to describe themselves. Well, actually I can’t be sure how often it ever came up. It could very well simply be that after hearing all of the colorful terms for Asians by my compatriots in West Texas, Oriental seemed benign to say the least. But then, you and I are Occidentals, are we not? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proper-grammar-asian-names-and-commas/468431.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proper-grammar-asian-names-and-commas/468431.md?page=3)