# Proper Greek pluralization, should it trump over 100 years of common English usage? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 15, 2006, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proper-greek-pluralization-should-it-trump-over-100-years-of-common-english-usage/368752 "2006-08-15T01:34:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proper-greek-pluralization-should-it-trump-over-100-years-of-common-english-usage/368752/81 "2006-08-16T23:57:03Z")
[QUOTE=Case Sensitive] It. Was. A. Joke. [/QUOTE] Just out of curiosity, how many grammar rules did you just break? And yet, you conveyed your meaning just fine. Gosh. Who’da thunk it? The thing about the language purist arguments is that you are already using one hell of a corrupted language. You’re clinging like mad to something so silly, when bigger battles have already been lost. Unshift your vowels! Fight the power! ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2006, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proper-greek-pluralization-should-it-trump-over-100-years-of-common-english-usage/368752/82 "2006-08-16T23:59:25Z")
[QUOTE=Case Sensitive] **sinjin** expresses it eloquently: I suspect a man who names his pegasuxen “Seauniotter”, “Seauniorca” and “Seaunidolphin” of being, indeed, a loser who can’t get dates. [/QUOTE] [Mr Greywolf](http://www.pegasinest.demon.co.uk/DanGreywolf.html) - who, incidentally, uses spellings like “powerfull” and “beleave” - his own bad self! Fess up, **LHOD** : you _can’t_ provide any credible cites for “pegasi” - despite your claims that there are too many out there for you to waste your time finding and I wouldn’t like them anyway - because it’s a bullshit word. I, on the other hand, provided a credible _and_ relatively recent cite for “octopods” - from a well-known and respected author - at the beginning of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proper-greek-pluralization-should-it-trump-over-100-years-of-common-english-usage/368752/83 "2006-08-17T00:14:12Z")
[QUOTE=Case Sensitive] It. Was. A. Joke. [/QUOTE] Right . . . ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proper-greek-pluralization-should-it-trump-over-100-years-of-common-english-usage/368752/84 "2006-08-17T00:38:17Z")
First: The fact that the Greeks would have pluralized “octopus” differently is irrelevant; this isn’t a word that is newly coined into English from Greek where no commonly used pluralization already exists. Second: It is probably _incorrect_ to say “octopi;” if one was to try and set a “rule” for a proper pluralization based upon usage, I’d bet it more likely you would hear “octopuses.” Certainly, kids in a classroom will try that first, and most adults I think will do the same. Third: If, for sake of argument, most adults in America would use “octopi,” then one would have to give serious consideration to calling that the “proper” pluralization in American English. If someone wants to swim upstream on that, that’s up to him/her, but it just makes you look foolish, **Case Sensitive**. Of course, I’ve enjoyed looking foolish on similar issues before. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proper-greek-pluralization-should-it-trump-over-100-years-of-common-english-usage/368752/85 "2006-08-17T01:16:39Z")
[QUOTE=Case Sensitive] [Mr Greywolf](http://www.pegasinest.demon.co.uk/DanGreywolf.html) - who, incidentally, uses spellings like “powerfull” and “beleave” - his own bad self! Fess up, **LHOD** : you _can’t_ provide any credible cites for “pegasi” - despite your claims that there are too many out there for you to waste your time finding and I wouldn’t like them anyway - because it’s a bullshit word. I, on the other hand, provided a credible _and_ relatively recent cite for “octopods” - from a well-known and respected author - at the beginning of this thread. [/QUOTE] And I provided cites to a 106 year old Dictionary and you tried to dismiss that. I proved one of your examples of a possible pluralization was in fact the family name and yet you have reduce your logic and argument to making fun of a straw-man that no one else but you supplied. A weak argument indeed. Pegasi is found throughout modern fantasy novels and games. You can not care for the Genre, but it is not logical or reasonable to dismiss its existence. You are correct that Pegasi has enter semi-popular culture via D&D as so much of modern fantasy is written by authors who cut their teeth in Fantasy on D&D or D&D based novels. Do you dismiss all words that enter the language from “Low-brow” sources? Jim ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proper-greek-pluralization-should-it-trump-over-100-years-of-common-english-usage/368752/86 "2006-08-17T01:47:35Z")
[QUOTE=Case Sensitive] Fess up, **LHOD** : you _can’t_ provide any credible cites for “pegasi” - despite your claims that there are too many out there for you to waste your time finding and I wouldn’t like them anyway - because it’s a bullshit word. [/QUOTE] “Æthiopia produces the lynx in abundance, and the sphinx, which has brown hair and two mammæ on the breast, as well as many monstrous kinds of a similar nature; horses with wings, and armed with horns, which are called pegasi” -Pliny the Elder, _Natural History_ ([link](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0137&query=head%3D%23363)) Now, granted Pliny was writing in Latin, but this is an English translation, which uses ‘pegasi’ as a plural form of pegasus for a winged (and horned!) horse. The footnote regarding this part of the passage repeatedly uses ‘pegasus’ as a common noun for winged horses. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proper-greek-pluralization-should-it-trump-over-100-years-of-common-english-usage/368752/87 "2006-08-17T01:57:53Z")
[QUOTE=Gorsnak] “Æthiopia produces the lynx in abundance, and the sphinx, which has brown hair and two mammæ on the breast, as well as many monstrous kinds of a similar nature; horses with wings, and armed with horns, which are called pegasi” -Pliny the Elder, _Natural History_ ([link](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0137&query=head%3D%23363)) Now, granted Pliny was writing in Latin, but this is an English translation, which uses ‘pegasi’ as a plural form of pegasus for a winged (and horned!) horse. The footnote regarding this part of the passage repeatedly uses ‘pegasus’ as a common noun for winged horses. [/QUOTE] Must refrain from saying “Ooh Burn!!” Pliny the Elder should Trump the little known George MacDonald Fraser, who by the way as a screen writer could be dismissed as a fluff writer. Jim the juvenile ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proper-greek-pluralization-should-it-trump-over-100-years-of-common-english-usage/368752/88 "2006-08-17T02:25:20Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?] Must refrain from saying “Ooh Burn!!” Pliny the Elder should Trump the little known George MacDonald Fraser, who by the way as a screen writer could be dismissed as a fluff writer. Jim the juvenile [/QUOTE] I dunno. _Natural History_ looks pretty fluffy to me. Manticores, basilisks, cameleopards, dragons, pegasi…it’s like a veritable D&D monster manual. 😛 Well, okay cameleopards are real - “There are two others animals, which have some resemblance to the camel. One of these is called, by the Æthiopians, the nabun. It has a neck like that of the horse, feet and legs like those of the ox, a head like that of the camel, and is covered with white spots upon a red ground; from which peculiarities it has been called the cameleopard. It was first seen at Rome in the Circensian games held by Cæsar, the Dictator. Since that time too, it has been occasionally seen. It is more remarkable for the singularity of its appearance than for its fierceness; for which reason it has obtained the name of the wild sheep.” - if you’re still having trouble, he’s talking about giraffes. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proper-greek-pluralization-should-it-trump-over-100-years-of-common-english-usage/368752/89 "2006-08-17T02:45:30Z")
[QUOTE=Gorsnak] “Æthiopia produces the lynx in abundance, and the sphinx, which has brown hair and two mammæ on the breast, as well as many monstrous kinds of a similar nature; horses with wings, and armed with horns, which are called pegasi” -Pliny the Elder, _Natural History_ ([link](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0137&query=head%3D%23363)) Now, granted Pliny was writing in Latin, but this is an English translation, which uses ‘pegasi’ as a plural form of pegasus for a winged (and horned!) horse. The footnote regarding this part of the passage repeatedly uses ‘pegasus’ as a common noun for winged horses. [/QUOTE] What’s the plural of “booyah!”? **Case Sensitive** , your entire argument boils down to a sneer. When discussing the differently girlfriend-enabled, I wonder about someone who thinks that their pluralization of octopus makes them superior to others, and about their poor dates. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proper-greek-pluralization-should-it-trump-over-100-years-of-common-english-usage/368752/90 "2006-08-17T02:49:58Z")
[QUOTE=Gorsnak] “Æthiopia produces the lynx in abundance, and the sphinx, which has brown hair and two mammæ on the breast, as well as many monstrous kinds of a similar nature; horses with wings, and armed with horns, which are called pegasi” -Pliny the Elder, _Natural History_ ([link](http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0137&query=head%3D%23363)) [/QUOTE] OK, now _that’s_ a cite. I don’t much like the word, but pegasi it is. However, I still maintain that “octopi” is and always will be wrong. Oh, and **Excalibre**? Podunk! ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proper-greek-pluralization-should-it-trump-over-100-years-of-common-english-usage/368752/91 "2006-08-17T03:00:42Z")
My apologies to Mr Greywolf, too. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proper-greek-pluralization-should-it-trump-over-100-years-of-common-english-usage/368752/92 "2006-08-17T03:19:29Z")
[QUOTE=Case Sensitive] OK, now _that’s_ a cite. I don’t much like the word, but pegasi it is. However, I still maintain that “octopi” is and always will be wrong. Oh, and **Excalibre**? Podunk! [/QUOTE] I am very happy you accept Pliny. Somehow that is one of the funniest and most definite cites I have ever seen. You have seen many arguments and a few cites for Octopi. My wife suggests that the proper Plural of Octopus may well be Octopus. It appears that the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica used that form. Anyone else in possession of old encyclopedias or dictionaries. I checked some Popular Sciences from the 1870’s I have but no help there. No index hit on Octopus. **sinjin** found and posted that the OED uses Octopi. I’ll add this one: 1913 Webster’s New International Dictionary Page 1489: > [@](#): > > Octopus: _pl._ E. OCTOPUSES; L. OCTOPI So no Greek version is acceptable in English. At some point you might want to admit that while you are right in your heart, you are wrong in English. Your argument is based on the: The word is Greek, so we should use the Greek rules. It seems apparent that several authorities on the English language disagree with you. Jim ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proper-greek-pluralization-should-it-trump-over-100-years-of-common-english-usage/368752/93 "2006-08-17T03:42:22Z")
Just to add to the confusion, The 1938 Encyclopedia Britannica on page 700 of volume 16 is using \*\*Octopods \*\* as the apparent plural of Octopus in the article that is a slight rewrite of the online 1911 one I linked to earlier. So I have found a cite to back you up **Case Sensitive**. Anyone notice I have way too many very old reference books in my house? Jim ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proper-greek-pluralization-should-it-trump-over-100-years-of-common-english-usage/368752/94 "2006-08-17T04:05:38Z")
Webster’s New Twentieth Century Unabridged Dictionary. 1983. Page 1239 > [@](#): > > \*pl.\*\*\*octopuses, octopodes, octopi \*\* Scott, Foresman Advanced Dictionary, Doubleday Edition. 1979. Page 709-710 Provides no plurals but has an entry to that > [@](#): > > Octopod n. any order of eight-armed cephalopods that includes the octopus. > _Adj._ Having eight arms [The Online Etymology Dictionary:](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=octopus&searchmode=none) I plan to Email them this thread for review of their entry. > [@](#): > > \*\*octopus \*\* 1758, genus name of a type of eight-armed cephalopod mollusks, from Gk. oktopous “eight-footed,” from okto “eight” + pous “foot.” Proper plural is octopodes, though octopuses probably works better in English. Octopi is from mistaken assumption that -us is the L. noun ending that takes -i in plural. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2006, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proper-greek-pluralization-should-it-trump-over-100-years-of-common-english-usage/368752/95 "2006-08-17T04:11:41Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] **Case Sensitive** , your entire argument boils down to a sneer. When discussing the differently girlfriend-enabled, I wonder about someone who thinks that their pluralization of octopus makes them superior to others, and about their poor dates. [/QUOTE] Yeah. I’ve explained why the plural of “appendix” is “appendices” to lots of people, and I’ve never gotten a date out of it. I’m not sure Case Sensitive’s logic about girlfriends really applies. ---
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2006, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proper-greek-pluralization-should-it-trump-over-100-years-of-common-english-usage/368752/96 "2006-08-20T09:42:38Z")
Actually, the OED says that the plural of octopus is octopodes but (as of the most recent addition) they have conceded that octopi is more common. However, they do so with that lovely British philological disdain. To requote: > [@](#): > > The plural form octopodes reflects the Greek plural; cf. OCTOPOD n. The more frequent plural form octopi arises from apprehension of the final -us of the word as the grammatical ending of Latin second declension nouns; this apprehension is also reflected in compounds in octop-: see e.g. OCTOPEAN a., OCTOPIC a., OCTOPINE a., etc. When I read this, I see a spindly old man in a shawl shuddering at the very thought of those barbarians who would say octopi. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2006, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proper-greek-pluralization-should-it-trump-over-100-years-of-common-english-usage/368752/97 "2006-08-20T12:18:51Z")
OK, so while reading this exercise in arcane stuff, a couple of our teen members, afflicted with acne, were moved to pick at their pimples, and of course between them they squeezed out pi. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2006, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proper-greek-pluralization-should-it-trump-over-100-years-of-common-english-usage/368752/98 "2006-08-20T17:10:21Z")
[QUOTE=Polycarp] OK, so while reading this exercise in arcane stuff, a couple of our teen members, afflicted with acne, were moved to pick at their pimples, and of course between them they squeezed out pi. [/QUOTE] Would you rather they squeeze out podes? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2006, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proper-greek-pluralization-should-it-trump-over-100-years-of-common-english-usage/368752/99 "2006-08-20T17:41:37Z")
Can I mention that _octopi_ annoys the fuck out of me? I’d like to personally give a bloody nose to everybody who goes around inventing fake Latin plurals for words. Except when they’re joking. Lord help me, I’ve seen people here on the SDMB use _penii_ instead of _penises_ or _penes_. Where the hell did this notion of plurals in _-ii_ come from in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2006, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proper-greek-pluralization-should-it-trump-over-100-years-of-common-english-usage/368752/100 "2006-08-20T18:08:05Z")
[QUOTE=Excalibre] Can I mention that _octopi_ annoys the fuck out of me? I’d like to personally give a bloody nose to everybody who goes around inventing fake Latin plurals for words. Except when they’re joking. Lord help me, I’ve seen people here on the SDMB use _penii_ instead of _penises_ or _penes_. Where the hell did this notion of plurals in _-ii_ come from in the first place? [/QUOTE] If there were fewer people who got irritated over nonstandard plurals, there would probably be fewer people who made Latinerrific plurals out of nonLatinaceous words. It’s the folks who insist on “antennae” and “succubi” who are responsible for “pegasi” and “penii”: folks who _haven’t_ studied Latin know that these podesantic will sneer at them if they form improper plurals, and so they do their best to avoid those sneers. Daniel [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proper-greek-pluralization-should-it-trump-over-100-years-of-common-english-usage/368752.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proper-greek-pluralization-should-it-trump-over-100-years-of-common-english-usage/368752.md?page=6)