# Prophecies **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 21, 2014, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prophecies/686582 "2014-04-21T03:57:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prophecies/686582/41 "2014-04-22T02:39:47Z")
If anyone thinks that the Bible has virtue or a divine origin due to fulfilled prophesies, I recommend studying the “prophesies” of Nostradamus. James Randi has an excellent book on this subject, [The Mask of Nostradamus.](http://www.amazon.com/The-Mask-Nostradamus-Prophecies-Worlds/dp/0879758309/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1398134158&sr=8-1&keywords=nostradamus+randi) When you see how that medieval “seer” is misinterpreted and how he put together his verses, you may gain a valuable understanding on how the Bible’s prophecies seem to work. In short, the “fulfillment” is mostly in the eye of the beholder. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prophecies/686582/42 "2014-04-22T03:16:39Z")
But Randi is a known prestidigitator. How can we trust what he says? ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prophecies/686582/43 "2014-04-22T03:26:14Z")
> [@nevadaexile](#): > > The problem Biblical prophecies is also the major problem with the Bible itself: There are almost no stories which relate events as they are occurring by people writing in the first person. The entire narrative is clearly second and third-person accounts many of which (as Thomas Paine correctly points out in his polemic, _ **The Age of Reason** _) don’t even match the timeline proposed by the Bible itself. > > When you can resolve all of the other errors and inaccuracies in the Bible you could then factually debate the accuracy of any prophecies or prophetic statements made within its pages. John purports to be first-hand (minimally edited), and I’d defend the claim that it is. It’s true that it was written sometime between 30 and 60 years after the crucifixion, depending on whether you subscribe to conservative scholars or liberal ones, so you’re right that it doesn’t related ‘events as they are occurring’. The clearest prophecies, for Christians, are the Old Testament prophecies of the Passion. Of course, you can get out of that by claiming that the entire Passion of Christ was a fiction concocted to seem like a fulfilled prophecy. I think that’s preposterous, personally (not least because even the Gnostics, who flatly denied the Old Testament, agreed that Jesus had been crucified), but I can’t prove it to you. There are relatively few events where 1) a biblical prophecy of an unlikely event was made no later than Date X, 2) at some later time, the unlikely event happens, and 3) the details are historically unambiguous. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prophecies/686582/44 "2014-04-22T03:28:07Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Uh… wait, what? It hasn’t been proven to have happened at all, let alone during the fourth empire to rule over the jews… Good point. What sounds like Wicked Awesome Prophecy to **FriarTed** and I, may not seem like a big deal to atheists, Jews, or members of other religions. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prophecies/686582/45 "2014-04-22T04:22:48Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > . . . The clearest prophecies, for Christians, are the Old Testament prophecies of the Passion. Of course, you can get out of that by claiming that the entire Passion of Christ was a fiction . . . There’s a much easier way to get out of it. The prophecies can be interpreted as referring to other things entirely, and Christianity “pinned the tail on the donkey,” so to speak, claiming that a prophecy having to do with God turning his back on the Jews for failing to stick to the letter of the law “really” has to do with the sacrifice of Jesus. As I mentioned earlier, some Christians try too hard to interpret OT stories in light of NT events. The ram with his head in a thicket is unlikely to be a meaningful presaging of Jesus’ crown of thorns. The lintels and posts of the doorways marked by blood, at the Passover, are not presaging of the upright and crosspiece of Jesus’ execution. This kind of reasoning leads to the “Miraculous similarities between Lincoln and Kennedy.” It’s exegesis by shoe-horn. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prophecies/686582/46 "2014-04-22T05:07:02Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Most theologically liberal\*/secular biblical scholars are going to date Luke and Acts, for example, to between 80 and 90 AD (if I remember right, anyone is welcome to correct me). More theologically conservative scholars (and some theological liberals, like the great John A.T. Robinson) are going to date Luke/Acts to sometime around the early 60s, largely on the basis that they don’t mention the deaths of Paul or James. If Luke was written in, e.g., 62 AD, then its predictions of the fall of Jerusalem are just that, genuine prophecy. If it was written 20-30 years later, then they aren’t. Personally I side with the ‘conservatives’ here- it seems preposterous to me that the author of Acts would fail to mention the death of the central figure in his story, if he knew about it, and the descriptions of the fall of Jerusalem are much vaguer than one sees in texts that were definitely written after the fact- but neither of us can _prove_ to the other when Luke was written, and therefore neither of us can prove whether the stuff about the Fall of Jerusalem is, or is not, genuine prophecy. Meh. Acts is a formulaic work that ends with the Jews of Rome generally rejecting Paul’s words and the author summing it up that Paul was bringing the Word to the Gentiles by preaching in Rome, the heart of the Gentile empire. The author claims that Paul “lived” two years in Rome without saying anything about what happened next. Under your scenario, he should have said “Paul has been living in Rome for two years.” The work is not a biography of Paul, it is a narrative that uses Paul to show the spread of Christianity. No mention is made of Paul’s journey to Spain, for example, even though the text indicates that Paul is not still living in Rome. I agree that we will not persuade each other, but your case just seems odd. > [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > 1. St. John in Revelation 17-18 predicts the fall of the Roman Empire (about three and a half centuries before it happened), that it would fall to ten subsidiary peoples (the ‘ten horns of the beast’) which can be interpreted as the Germanic barbarian tribes, and he hints at a time line (the stuff about 'six kings have fallen, etc.", which you can sort of squeeze into a reasonably accurate time line if you date the beginning of Rome at 753, and its fall in 473 AD.) There were not ten Germanic tribes that brought down Rome. Revelation says that the ten kings will fight with the Lamb and be overthrown. If those are Germanic kings, that did not happen. Rome is described as being destroyed utterly, “and shall be found no more at all,” and that certainly never happened. I have no idea where you got the notion that Revelation explains the History of Rome from 753 B.C.E. to 473 C.E. (For that matter, I have never seen 473 given as the Fall of Rome, which is usually given as 456 or 476.) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prophecies/686582/47 "2014-04-22T05:09:48Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > The clearest prophecies, for Christians, are the Old Testament prophecies of the Passion. Of course, you can get out of that by claiming that the entire Passion of Christ was a fiction concocted to seem like a fulfilled prophecy. I think that’s preposterous, personally (not least because even the Gnostics, who flatly denied the Old Testament, agreed that Jesus had been crucified), but I can’t prove it to you. There are relatively few events where 1) a biblical prophecy of an unlikely event was made no later than Date X, 2) at some later time, the unlikely event happens, and 3) the details are historically unambiguous. Easily explained in post #30: What you are claiming to be prophecies in the Old Testament are either so vague as to be literally useless or they weren’t meant to be prophecies at all…which puts them one step below Nostradamus’ nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prophecies/686582/48 "2014-04-22T06:20:45Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Are there any Biblical “prophesies” that _didn’t_ need after-the-fact interpretation, where people knew what the prophet was talking about _before_ the event supposedly prophesied? There are several that haven’t been fulfilled yet–the rise of the Antichrist, the rebuilding of the temple, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prophecies/686582/49 "2014-04-22T06:32:10Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > **Voyager** If God could guide the writing of a text, He could guide its translation, and He could even guide the emendation of errors in the original text. It was the contention of a lot of early Christians that the translation of the Septuagint had in fact been miraculously guided. Did he guide the version of the King James Bible where it says thou shalt commit adultery? 😃 Anyhow, your version would work if the original had been lost. Unfortunately for you, we still have it and some of us (like my old Rabbi) understand it. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prophecies/686582/50 "2014-04-22T07:10:51Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > …the rebuilding of the temple, etc. The temple’s already been rebuilt – it’s just called by a [different name now.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dome_of_the_rock) The fact that it houses worshipers of a completely different religion is just one of those nasty “Gotcha ya!” tricks that God enjoys inflicting upon his children. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prophecies/686582/51 "2014-04-22T15:37:10Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > The temple’s already been rebuilt – it’s just called by a [different name now.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dome_of_the_rock) > > The fact that it houses worshipers of a completely different religion is just one of those nasty “Gotcha ya!” tricks that God enjoys inflicting upon his children. You jest, but I think Joseph Campbell was onto something when he noticed that Yahweh’s behavior perfectly fits that of a Trickster god. Turns out that many things in the bible, particularly from Genesis and Exodus, can be understood more if we realize that \*\*Coyote \*\*was the one pulling the strings. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/JM10AvJ3bsM/hqdefault.jpg "Joseph Campbell--Mythology of the Trickster") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM10AvJ3bsM) ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Quatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bc8723/32.png) [@Mr\_Quatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Quatro)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prophecies/686582/52 "2014-04-22T17:30:03Z")
> [@butterfiles](#): > > Not that I want to debate necessarily (not sure this is the right forum for my post), but I’ve always wondered about the validity of prophecies in the bible, and prophecies in general. > > \>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\> > > I can’t very well find a post-dated prediction to be miraculous, can I? I mean this question sincerely. I’ve never gotten an answer even close to satisfactory. I can try to satisfy you butterfiles … I’m sure it will bring mirth, but what the heck it’s a slow day after Easter lol If the bible has false prophets then it has true prophets. Jeremiah was a prophet and the Lord spoke to him about false prophets. > [@](#): > > Jeremiah 23: 25-26 > “I have heard the prophets who prophesy lies in my name. They say, ‘I have had a dream! I have had a dream!’ How long will this continue in the minds of these lying prophets? They prophesy from their own wishful thinking. > [@](#): > > Jeremiah 23: 32 > I am against the prophets who prophesy false dreams,” says the LORD. “They mislead my people with their lies and false teachings! I did not send them or command them to do anything for me. They can’t help the people of Judah at all,” says the LORD. Micah was a prophet also and spoke of false prophets: > [@](#): > > Micah 2:11 > But you people want a false prophet > who will tell you nothing but lies. > You want one who promises to prophesy good things for you > if you give him wine and beer. > He’s just the prophet for you. St Peter explained the gift of prophesy: 2 Peter 1: 20-21 > [@](#): > > Most of all, you must understand this: No prophecy in the Scriptures ever comes from the prophet’s own interpretation. No prophecy ever came from what a person wanted to say, but people led by the Holy Spirit spoke words from God. I have the gift of prophesy … You must understand that prophesy is a very serious matter and it must be repeated in the same way it was given. I remember one prophecy that sounded odd, but it was given to show how strong God really is and that until the appointed time comes He is the protector of Israel. Prophecy: July 17th 2007 “If Iran should launch a missile towards Tel-Aviv it would land in Jordan” This is a good thing of course unless you live in Jordan and shows the humor of God in order to prove this was God speaking he also said a hurricane would broach Texas. A few months later September 14th 2007 a tropical storm became a hurricane: [http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Hurricane-s-rapid-growth-stuns-scientists-2522336.php](http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Hurricane-s-rapid-growth-stuns-scientists-2522336.php) Hurricane Humberto broached Texas which had never in recorded history happened before that a hurricane came up within 24 hours from a tropical storm to a hurricane. Prophecy: three years ago “Hamas will hurt Israel so bad it will shock the world” This is a bad thing that will happen to Israel of course, but it is allowed by God for his reason alone. You can’t add to prophecy, but you can try to understand it. I am not a false prophet nor am I a proud one … prophesy is a gift. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prophecies/686582/53 "2014-04-22T17:50:16Z")
> [@Mr\_Quatro](#): > > If the bible has false prophets then it has true prophets. I’m going to stop you right there. That is nothing more than illogical nonsense and has no place whatsoever in any debate on this (or any other) subject. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prophecies/686582/54 "2014-04-22T19:09:21Z")
> [@Mr\_Quatro](#): > > Micah was a prophet also and spoke of false prophets: > > > [@](#): > > > > Micah 2:11 > > But you people want a false prophet > > who will tell you nothing but lies. > > You want one who promises to prophesy good things for you > > if you give him wine and beer. > > He’s just the prophet for you. Why do I read this as if it’s sung by George Thorogood? ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2014, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prophecies/686582/55 "2014-04-22T22:58:09Z")
> [@Mr\_Quatro](#): > > I am not a false prophet nor am I a proud one … prophesy is a gift. Looks like kanicbird has some competition. ---
**Author:** ![butterfiles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b3f665/32.png) [@butterfiles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/butterfiles)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prophecies/686582/56 "2014-04-23T02:44:52Z")
Seriously I have never heard of a prophecy that I didn’t think: lame. And I don’t generally have that reaction when reading religious texts. There’s something about the prophecies that comes across to me as especially fishy. And I feel that way about others too, like Nostradamus. Every time I hear or read one, I think: that’s it? that’s the amazing prediction? And the texts about prophecies cover that as well, saying well there will be plenty of people that mock prophecies or aren’t awed by them, because afterall that’s one of the ways you know that it’s true or right (not _everyone_ can get it). ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prophecies/686582/57 "2014-04-23T04:20:01Z")
> [@Mr\_Quatro](#): > > I am not a false prophet nor am I a proud one … prophesy is a gift. How many humble prophets in teh bible proclaim themselves prophets? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prophecies/686582/58 "2014-04-23T12:44:57Z")
> [@simster](#): > > How many humble prophets in teh bible proclaim themselves prophets? Define “humble” in this context. Several of the prophets–most notably Isaiah, chapter 6–speak of being unworthy of the position, but being selected by God, regardless. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prophecies/686582/59 "2014-04-23T12:48:04Z")
Mind you, I do not accept **Mr Quatro** ’s claims, (getting wrong the notion of what prophecy is tends to make me doubt his calling), but you asked a specific question. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2014, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prophecies/686582/60 "2014-04-23T13:31:41Z")
> [@simster](#): > > How many humble prophets in teh bible proclaim themselves prophets? While a direct proclamation may be rare (IDK), they are far from humble speaking in the name of the Lord, rebuking Kings in the name of the Lord, example:. [QUOTE=1 Chron 21,] 12 Jehoram received a letter from Elijah the prophet, which said: “This is what the Lord, the God of your father David, says: ‘You have not followed the ways of your father Jehoshaphat or of Asa king of Judah. 13 But you have followed the ways of the kings of Israel, and you have led Judah and the people of Jerusalem to prostitute themselves, just as the house of Ahab did. You have also murdered your own brothers, members of your own family, men who were better than you. 14 So now the Lord is about to strike your people, your sons, your wives and everything that is yours, with a heavy blow. 15 You yourself will be very ill with a lingering disease of the bowels, until the disease causes your bowels to come out.’” [/QUOTE] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prophecies/686582.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prophecies/686582.md?page=4)