# Proportionally speaking, are wolves more fatal than dogs? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 4, 2023, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proportionally-speaking-are-wolves-more-fatal-than-dogs/977682 "2023-01-04T22:15:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proportionally-speaking-are-wolves-more-fatal-than-dogs/977682/41 "2023-01-25T02:11:23Z")
I was talking with guy with a documented wolf hybrid. Offspring of a wolf stud and big shepherd dog bitch. The owner had done rudimentary training work for the month or so he’d had the six month old 110 pound beast. I told him I wouldn’t be comfortable with a hybrid. He poo-pooed my concerns. Then, when it misbehaved (tugging on leash, barking, wanting to leave) he gave a sharp tug on the prong collar. It spun around and slammed its front paws into his shoulders, pining him to the wall. No growling, but intense eye contact. I was on the other side of the room and _I_ was scared. Re-homed a few days later. ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proportionally-speaking-are-wolves-more-fatal-than-dogs/977682/42 "2023-01-25T14:54:32Z")
Idiots who breed wolf-dog hybrids thinking the result will be an animal that they can control and be safe around are fooling themselves and everyone else. Because these animals have a mixture of domestic and wild genetic traits, their development is very unpredictable. You may hope for the best of both worlds, but just as easily get the worst. The worst traits in these canid worlds are something to fear, not something to take for a walk around the neighborhood. Things may be fine and dandy so long as the wolf-dog remains happy and content. But, piss Wolfgang off one too many times after he’s grown into a massive, strong creature, and you may pay the price with your life, or an innocent bystander’s life. They may look regal, warm, and cuddly, but a wolf-dog can easily kill even a large, strong human being. Pound for pound a wild animal is always more aggressive, more intelligent, and more deadly than a domesticated animal in the same family on the phylogenetic tree. I can think of no exceptions. Your Pit Bull, Kangal, or Dogo Argentino is _not_ going to come out on the winning end in a fight against a gray wolf. Domestic cats are a different story. Unlike all other domesticated animals, house cats are more wild than domestic. Wildness was only minimally bred out of “_domestic_” cats. The only reason your Snowflake and Simba pose no danger to you is that they are too tiny to f\*#k you up when you piss them off. If my lovable 6 cats were upwards of a hundred pounds, I have no doubt I’d be on the menu after they finished their Kibbles & Bits. With the exception of _semi_-wild domestic cats, wild animals should not be kept as pets or bred into hybrids. Leave them be, in the wild. …on second thought, there are too many people and not enough wildlife. Maybe it’s time to reverse that trend. Let’s all get a pet Nile Croc. Name him Mr. Snippy. > **[Ask Smithsonian: Are Cats Domesticated?](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/ask-smithsonian-are-cats-domesticated-180955111/)** > > There is little genetic difference between a tabby and a wild cat, so scientists think the house cat is only domestic when it wants to be ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proportionally-speaking-are-wolves-more-fatal-than-dogs/977682/43 "2023-01-25T16:07:23Z")
> [@Tibby](#): > > Pound for pound a wild animal is always more aggressive, more intelligent, and more deadly than a domesticated animal in the same family on the phylogenetic tree. I think there’s some nuance to this. Wild animals are much more deadly _when they decide to engage_. But when there is no good reason to engage, they will often simply avoid the risk of confrontation. Whereas fighting dog breeds have been deliberately bred to lose this prudence and discretion about violence, they will engage in violence more readily (and pointlessly) than a wild animal. In that sense, a Pit Bull is instinctively more aggressive than a wolf, notwithstanding the fact that it would certainly lose if a wolf _chose_ to fight. ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proportionally-speaking-are-wolves-more-fatal-than-dogs/977682/44 "2023-01-25T16:15:43Z")
Perhaps I should have said wolves aren’t necessarily more aggressive than all types of dogs, but because they need to kill to survive (not given dog chow daily by a caring human), they are more experienced and skilled killers. They don’t kill with malice, they kill to protect territory and eat. Maybe they think, _sorry I gotta eat you fella, but it’s either you or me, and I choose me._ I’m pretty sure cheetahs think this when they outrun and kill gazelle (successful only ~5% of the time). They always look a little sorry when they catch one. 😿 ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proportionally-speaking-are-wolves-more-fatal-than-dogs/977682/45 "2023-01-25T16:51:35Z")
An example of a wild animal that _does_ kill with malice is the lion, when it kills Spotted Hyena. They hate hyena, with good reason. Not for the squeamish: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/o0akqcu-ujw/hqdefault.jpg "Lion king kills the queen of hyenas, Rate My Science") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0akqcu-ujw) In fact, I think they often prefer maiming hyena, rather than killing them outright. They want to see it suffer: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/8XPCPyair8Y/hqdefault.jpg "Lion cripples hyena to death out of hate, Rate My Science") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XPCPyair8Y) ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proportionally-speaking-are-wolves-more-fatal-than-dogs/977682/46 "2023-01-25T17:14:38Z")
> [@Tibby](#): > > An example of a wild animal that _does_ kill with malice is the lion I’m not sure what “malice” is supposed to mean here. It is no more _gratuitous_ violence than any other violence in nature, or natural selection would favor lions that didn’t do it. ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proportionally-speaking-are-wolves-more-fatal-than-dogs/977682/47 "2023-01-25T17:22:58Z")
I disagree. Some animals go beyond killing for territory protection and food. Some hate. Lions hate hyena. I believe cats in particular are capable of human-type emotions, and hatred is one such emotion. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proportionally-speaking-are-wolves-more-fatal-than-dogs/977682/48 "2023-01-25T17:27:38Z")
> [@Tibby](#): > > Some animals go beyond killing for territory protection and food. Some hate. Lions hate hyena. “Hatred” and all other emotions are simply mechanisms that have evolved to modulate behavior, whether in humans or lions. It is _possible_ that violent instincts that arose through natural selection can give rise to non-adaptive violent behavior by chance. Not all behavior is adaptive. But you have a strong burden to prove the implausible notion that lions killing hyenas cannot be explained as adaptive behavior, when they are obviously both predators competing for the same food resources. ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proportionally-speaking-are-wolves-more-fatal-than-dogs/977682/49 "2023-01-25T17:34:18Z")
Lions don’t eat hyena. They do kill them to protect habitat. I firmly believe they _also_ kill them out of hatred. They certainly have good reason to hate them. Hyena harass lions all the time. Would you hate hyena if they harassed you constantly? Why do you think lions haven’t evolved emotions to the same degree humans have? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proportionally-speaking-are-wolves-more-fatal-than-dogs/977682/50 "2023-01-25T17:36:22Z")
> [@Tibby](#): > > I firmly believe they _also_ kill them out of hatred. There is no “also”. Emotions are nature’s way of _implementing_ behavior. > [@Tibby](#): > > Why do you think lions haven’t evolved emotions to the same degree humans have? I never remotely said they don’t. The fact that lions hate hyena is simply nature’s way of implementing the adaptive behavior of killing them. What do you think your own emotions are? ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proportionally-speaking-are-wolves-more-fatal-than-dogs/977682/51 "2023-01-25T17:46:19Z")
Yes, but humans evolved emotions similarly to other higher vertebrates. So, if we can say humans “hate” (instead of saying perhaps more accurately it’s just an adaptive behavior) I think we can also say lions hate. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proportionally-speaking-are-wolves-more-fatal-than-dogs/977682/52 "2023-01-25T17:52:19Z")
> [@Tibby](#): > > Yes, but humans evolved emotions similarly to other higher vertebrates… I think we can also say lions hate. Again, I never said otherwise. I think your model for how behavior works is wrong. Emotions are the way that nature _implements_ behavior in animals with sophisticated cognition. ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proportionally-speaking-are-wolves-more-fatal-than-dogs/977682/53 "2023-01-25T17:56:48Z")
I’m simply saying lions hate hyena the same way I hate people who try to steal from me or harass me. Lay language is often shorthand for more complicated terminology. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proportionally-speaking-are-wolves-more-fatal-than-dogs/977682/54 "2023-01-25T17:58:58Z")
But the issue was that you seemed to be drawing some kind of qualitative _distinction_ between the malice/hatred that drives lions to kill hyenas and other adaptive killing behavior. > [@Tibby](#): > > They do kill them to protect habitat. I firmly believe they _also_ kill them out of hatred. There is no “also” here. ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2023, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proportionally-speaking-are-wolves-more-fatal-than-dogs/977682/55 "2023-01-25T18:05:19Z")
I wasn’t. And, you have my permission to remove my “also.” I think human hatred of people who steal from them can be explained as an adaptive behavior too. _Hate_ is just easier to say. It’s only one syllable. ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2023, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proportionally-speaking-are-wolves-more-fatal-than-dogs/977682/56 "2023-01-27T22:26:58Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > But the issue was that you seemed to be drawing some kind of qualitative _distinction_ between the malice/hatred that drives lions to kill hyenas and other adaptive killing behavior. > > > [@Tibby](#): > > > > They do kill them to protect habitat. I firmly believe they _also_ kill them out of hatred. > > There is no “also” here. Thinking more about this, I believe there _is_ a distinction to be made between mere protection of habitat and hatred in the case of lions vs. hyenas. Protection of habitat is a trait that evolved much earlier down the evolutionary tree, in species that had no capacity to “hate”, or emote in general. My guess is that hatred is a higher-order supervenient mental process that emerged in more cognitively advanced mammals as a result of any number of adverse stimuli, including habitat infringement, being attacked, being stolen from, being harassed, and in the case of humans—being cheated on, being abandoned, being ridiculed, etc. I believe lions protect their habitat from other animals, like wild dogs, jackals, cheetahs, and even competing male lions _without_ feeling hatred toward them. But, I have no doubt lions hate hyenas. Their behavior toward hyenas goes over and beyond the protection of territory. They don’t just want to avoid them, or scare them off, or reduce their numbers. They want to do all those things, but they also want to hurt them. You can have adaptive killing behavior without hatred, and you can feel hate that’s not a result of adaptive killing behavior. Therefore, I revoke my revocation of _“also.”_ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proportionally-speaking-are-wolves-more-fatal-than-dogs/977682.md?page=2)