# Proposal to explicitly ban sexism from the game room **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [August 9, 2021, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposal-to-explicitly-ban-sexism-from-the-game-room/948338 "2021-08-09T21:09:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2021, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposal-to-explicitly-ban-sexism-from-the-game-room/948338/81 "2021-08-12T09:23:31Z")
All those players are on the national team. Of course the level of competition for the men is considerably higher with almost every nation on the planet sporting a National Team. Competition for the womans team is getting tougher but there is only a handful of National Teams that can challenge them today. Compensation should be based on revenue generated with built in performance bonuses. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2021, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposal-to-explicitly-ban-sexism-from-the-game-room/948338/82 "2021-08-12T11:23:02Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Go to any country except the USA and no one can name a single USA womans player You seriously think no-one outside the USA knows who Megan Rapinoe is? Or, previously, Hope Solo? And I say this as someone who doesn’t follow sports at all. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2021, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposal-to-explicitly-ban-sexism-from-the-game-room/948338/83 "2021-08-12T14:30:49Z")
I would argue the knowledge of those individuals is probably fairly small. And Rapinoe is probably only really known in context of opposing Trump. Solo probably not much at all. OTOH, a player like Christian Pulisic is fairly well known in Europe. Weston McKennie is getting there, but he’s never won a UEFA Champions League. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2021, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposal-to-explicitly-ban-sexism-from-the-game-room/948338/84 "2021-08-12T14:38:07Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > The average attendance of the MSL was in 2019 12297 for 27 teams while it was 7337 for 10 teams in the NWSL. Just on attendance numbers, the MLS is 4x as popular as the NWSL. And the players salaries are going to reflect that. The average salary in the MLS is about $400k, while the **maximum** player salary in the NWSL is $52,500. And really, it’s this salary difference that is the main factor in the amount paid to players on the national teams. To get top talent to play in the national teams, the national team will need to pay relative to what the players are already making. It’s going to cost more to get a $400k player to be on the team than a $52k player. Just on popularity, the women’s national team is more popular than the men’s. That gives them leverage to ask for higher salaries. But the women’s national team is already getting the very best talent at the price they are currently paying, so they don’t really have to pay more unless the women start refusing to join the team. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2021, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposal-to-explicitly-ban-sexism-from-the-game-room/948338/85 "2021-08-12T14:44:59Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > I would argue the knowledge of those individuals is probably fairly small. And I’m disputing that. And I’m disputing it specifically as someone who is in “any country except the USA” and knows both and has for years, and has never heard of the male jobbing players being contrasted with them. Rapinoe is also a big LGBT icon, and was before Trump. Hope Solo is well-known for … several other things. None of those men have ever been on _Dancing with the Stars_, have they? But why they’re known is irrelevant, because most people who know one or both of the women _also_ know they are or have been on Team USA. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2021, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposal-to-explicitly-ban-sexism-from-the-game-room/948338/86 "2021-08-12T14:45:02Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > The average attendance of the MSL was in 2019 12297 for 27 teams You may have transposed some numbers… MLS’s average attendance in 2019 was 21,304 and there were 24 teams that year (there are 27 now). Makes the point a little more clearly I guess. [Major League Soccer attendance - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_League_Soccer_attendance) ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2021, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposal-to-explicitly-ban-sexism-from-the-game-room/948338/87 "2021-08-12T14:48:21Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@ISiddiqui](#): > > > > I would argue the knowledge of those individuals is probably fairly small. > > And I’m disputing that. > > Rapinoe is also a big LGBT icon, and was before Trump. > > Hope Solo is well-known for … several other things. None of those men have ever been on _Dancing with the Stars_, have they? > > But why they’re known is irrelevant, because most people who know one or both of the women _also_ know they are or have been on Team USA. This seems like I know these players for other US centric reasons. Why would someone in France care about who has been on Dancing with the Stars? And why, you may ask, do you know them more than say, Abby Wambach or Kristine Lilly or Carly Lloyd? Players that most American women soccer fans would say were better than Rapinoe or Solo? What about Christine Sinclair who recently broke Wambach’s record for most international goals in women’s soccer? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2021, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposal-to-explicitly-ban-sexism-from-the-game-room/948338/88 "2021-08-12T14:49:12Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Maybe it’s necessary in GB to avoid misunderstandings GB? Great Britain? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2021, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposal-to-explicitly-ban-sexism-from-the-game-room/948338/89 "2021-08-12T14:53:23Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > This seems like I know these players for other US centric reasons. Why would someone in France care about who has been on Dancing with the Stars? _I’m_ not in the USA. And I don’t care if there are better players (although - a better _goalie_ than Solo? Rare, that.), the fact remains, the original statement by **madsircool** was pants. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2021, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposal-to-explicitly-ban-sexism-from-the-game-room/948338/90 "2021-08-12T14:57:50Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I think we’re mostly in broad agreement that sexist talk (i.e., “she should get into the kitchen and make me a sandwich”) is off-limits and reality-based or opinion-based talk ("the WNBA is less popular so it’s right that their players should be paid less than the NBA’s) isn’t. I guess the relevant question for ATMB is whether debate on the merits of _either_ proposition are appropriate _for the game room_. ETA: You may remember this topic, > [@Men competing against women in the olympics](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-competing-against-women-in-the-olympics/947899): > > There has been some discussion about transgendered people competing in women’s classes, but I don’t want to discuss that. What I am wondering is a hypothetical about how much of an advantage men have over women in the olympic events. If a man for some reason was allowed to enter the women’s class of every olympic event, how many gold medals could he win? Also, who would be the ideal athlete for this? Someone like Usain Bolt maybe? was originally posted in some forum other than the game room. Having read through it I don’t see any sexism. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2021, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposal-to-explicitly-ban-sexism-from-the-game-room/948338/91 "2021-08-12T15:03:13Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > the fact remains, the original statement by **madsircool** was pants. I’m assuming it was deliberate hyperbole because it was responding to the following post: > [@The\_Librarian](#): > > Unless we look at soccer where the women’s team are stars, international celebrities. And nobody can name one male US soccer player. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2021, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposal-to-explicitly-ban-sexism-from-the-game-room/948338/92 "2021-08-12T15:03:45Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > GB? Great Britain? That was supposed to say GD aka Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2021, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposal-to-explicitly-ban-sexism-from-the-game-room/948338/93 "2021-08-12T15:19:59Z")
In the world of football fans yes. Most ignore womans footie. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2021, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposal-to-explicitly-ban-sexism-from-the-game-room/948338/94 "2021-08-12T15:23:15Z")
If you werent a poster on these boards it would be amazingly unlikely you would have heard of those players. Marta is a bigger name than Rapinoe and also a gay icon. I wonder how many people know who she is. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2021, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposal-to-explicitly-ban-sexism-from-the-game-room/948338/95 "2021-08-12T16:07:54Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > I’m talking about your definition of the word “athletic”. Because by that definition, the girl is less athletic than the man in that example. Unless they are competing against each other in a particular sport, no she isn’t. If in fact a grown man is playing basketball against a nine year old girl I guess he is **in that context** , but I don’t think that says a great deal about his athleticism. Comparing people in totally different athletic contexts means nothing. Andre de Grasse would absolutely destroy Lebron James in a 100m race, but he would embarrass himself against Lebron in one on one hoops. Who’s more athletic? There’s no clear answer to that out of context. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2021, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposal-to-explicitly-ban-sexism-from-the-game-room/948338/96 "2021-08-12T16:09:13Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > Just on attendance numbers, the MLS is 4x as popular as the NWSL. And the players salaries are going to reflect that. The average salary in the MLS is about $400k, while the **maximum** player salary in the NWSL is $52,500. Does not appear to be reflecting that. If that were what’s going on, then a 4x difference in popularity would produce an average NWSL salary of 100K, not a maximum of 52,5. It’s odd to compare the maximum to the average in any case. Why not give both figures for both? > [@RickJay](#): > > Comparing people in totally different athletic contexts means nothing. For the third time: _I’m not talking about that_. I’m talking about your definition of the word “athletic”. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2021, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposal-to-explicitly-ban-sexism-from-the-game-room/948338/97 "2021-08-12T16:17:12Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > I’m talking about your definition of the word “athletic” Then you didn’t pay enough attention to my definition, I guess. Oh well. We’re getting off topic, and it’s time to get back on track. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2021, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposal-to-explicitly-ban-sexism-from-the-game-room/948338/98 "2021-08-12T16:18:21Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Does not appear to be reflecting that. If that were what’s going on, then a 4x difference in popularity would produce an average NWSL salary of 100K, not a maximum of 52,5. > > It’s odd to compare the maximum to the average in any case. Why not give both figures for both? Attendance isn’t the only metric. The MLS has other revenue streams such as TV and merch. The men’s teams have a lot more variation in salaries. Some players are making millions while others are making $100k. The popularity of the men’s teams are able to bring in a lot more revenue than the women’s, and the salaries reflect that. As for why not the average for women, I thought it was striking that the max women’s salary was so much less than the average men’s salary. A max salary of $52k is a relatively low salary for a world-class ability. Compared to regular jobs, $52k would be like a generic social worker or something. Even though the women’s national soccer team is popular, that doesn’t seem to translate into team revenue or a high salary. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2021, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposal-to-explicitly-ban-sexism-from-the-game-room/948338/99 "2021-08-12T17:01:13Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > As for why not the average for women, I thought it was striking that the max women’s salary was so much less than the average men’s salary. A max salary of $52k is a relatively low salary for a world-class ability. Compared to regular jobs, $52k would be like a generic social worker or something. Even though the women’s national soccer team is popular, that doesn’t seem to translate into team revenue or a high salary. Well one of the issues is that a lot of the ‘bigger name’ players get paid a salary by US Soccer (in the men’s side no player gets a salary for playing for the national team, they get an appearance fee), and I believe part of that salary says they also play for an NWSL team. So someone like Carly Lloyd makes $518,000, but only $52k or so is from her NWSL team (NY/NJ Gotham) ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2021, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposal-to-explicitly-ban-sexism-from-the-game-room/948338/100 "2021-08-12T17:52:53Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Then you didn’t pay enough attention to my definition, I guess To clarify: What I’m trying to figure out is whether you really think the term “athletic” is only used when describing people competing directly against each other, assume that sense to be the only one in use by others, and are insisting it’s the only reasonable way for it to be read including in ATMB; or whether you’re using two different definitions for the term and expecting others to always guess accurately which one you mean, including in ATMB. > [@filmore](#): > > As for why not the average for women, I thought it was striking that the max women’s salary was so much less than the average men’s salary. I thought so also. It would be even more striking compared to the max men’s salary, no? > [@ISiddiqui](#): > > one of the issues is that a lot of the ‘bigger name’ players get paid a salary by US Soccer (in the men’s side no player gets a salary for playing for the national team, they get an appearance fee), and I believe part of that salary says they also play for an NWSL team. So someone like Carly Lloyd makes $518,000, but only $52k or so is from her NWSL team (NY/NJ Gotham) Ah. That’s interesting, and adds to how complicated comparisons can be. [Here’s an article](https://www.sportingnews.com/us/soccer/news/uswnt-player-salaries-usa-women-soccer-pay-vs-men-world-cup/qzuufgsku4cf1f1eu9p8uou5y) with a batch of other interesting figures; though direct comparisons still often aren’t clear. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposal-to-explicitly-ban-sexism-from-the-game-room/948338.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposal-to-explicitly-ban-sexism-from-the-game-room/948338.md?page=6)