# Proposals for fighting ignorance in America **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 24, 2003, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposals-for-fighting-ignorance-in-america/184064 "2003-06-24T16:19:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Clucky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@Clucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clucky)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposals-for-fighting-ignorance-in-america/184064/61 "2003-06-26T16:10:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lemur866 \* > \*\*First of all, the idea that most Americans are sheep who simply uncritically accept what the leaders tell them is ludicrious on its face. It is simply flat out untrue. > \*\* Well, I’m not sure who you’re arguing with here. I didn’t say Americans are sheep, first of all. What I described is a system that is set up not to inform, but to propagandize. Now, I am talking almost exclusively about our nation’s foreign relations policy. And, this thread is specifically about a poll that has to deal with a foreign matter. On domestic issues, there is MUCH more coverage from different sides. And, now AFTER the matter, the war’s circumstances are under a bright light. Before the war, you heard very little anti-war or pacifist rhetoric in the mainstream press. Then, add to the fact that we aren’t taught to think critically, but more often are taught to accept our government’s foreign policy. Think about this with an open mind > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lemur866 \* > \*\*Why would someone post something that foolish? Well, because most Americans don’t agree with them…and anyone who doesn’t agree with them MUST be an idiot! By definition! > \*\* Well, no, of course not. I don’t think you’re an idiot for not agreeing with me. I think you look from a decidedly different point-of-view. Disagree with me, fine. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lemur866 \* > \*\*Do you all REALLY believe that Americans are more sheep-like and docile than, say, Europeans? No, of course not. > \*\* I’m sticking to the OP about America. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lemur866 \* > \*\*This is just more pseudo-elitist posturing and mental masturbation. > \*\* You’re attacking me, not the argument. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lemur866 \* > \*\*Take your so-called critical thinking and apply it to yourself for once. > \*\* I’m not in the OP. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lemur866 \* > \*\*Analyze yourselves the way you analyze big business or the media or government. What vested interest do YOU have believing that the average human being is a natural slave? > \*\* I don’t believe that, didn’t say that. I explained a system that doesn’t fully inform the public. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lemur866 \* > \*\*What benefit does it give YOU? I can think of several reasons that someone might chose to believe these things. Very few of them are flattering. Yes, everyone else is an ignorant sheep, but you are a beautiful enlightened flower of compassion. > > Uh-huh. > \*\* Well, you can give me those unflattering reasons why I might choose to believe what I posted here. But, if you had just asked, I posted this here because I’ve sorta discovered this stuff recently because of the way our government and corporate-run media built up this war in Iraq. I didn’t make up what happened, and I didn’t make up the numbers that show that Americans weren’t informed on the issue. Refute the evidence, if you wish. ---
**Author:** ![Clucky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@Clucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clucky)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposals-for-fighting-ignorance-in-america/184064/62 "2003-06-26T16:14:17Z")
Btw, I don’t agree with the argument that people are getting what they demand, in regards to the news that comes in our home each day. I tend to believe that the public would readily consume a point-counterpoint approach to news that really has to divergent views. In the case of the war on Iraq, we could have had a well informed pacifist square off against a neo-conservative. In prime time. It could have been packaged, sold and successfully done. Instead, we got a lot of the same for months. All very “patriotic” and not based in critical thinking. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposals-for-fighting-ignorance-in-america/184064/63 "2003-06-26T17:02:48Z")
A MODEST PROPOSAL FOR FIGHTING IGNORANCE IN AMERICA- the Internet Porn Test- in order to access porn sites, a person will have to correctly answer a set of basic news & general knowledge questions, with the Qs varying with each log on- people will become scholars in no time. ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposals-for-fighting-ignorance-in-america/184064/64 "2003-06-26T21:45:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > **The only thing that will change any of this is if people suffer some kind of loss if they can’t reach some standard. A minority will work harder to reach the standard, most of the rest will try to get the standard lowered, everyone else will say “Sour grapes”.** We can’t have that. Such a thing is part of that evil American Conservativism! The very IDEA! Actually permitting the able-minded to benefit therefrom?! > [@](#): > > \*\* > Robert Heinlein once suggested that everyone should have to solve a quadratic equation before they would be allowed to vote.\*\* Well, Uncle Bob wrote a lot of things over the years. I’m sure he was sober for at least some of it. ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2003, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposals-for-fighting-ignorance-in-america/184064/65 "2003-06-26T21:53:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Clu \* > **You’ve brought up interesting questions re: the details of that type of system. It’s fun to think about the potential harms of the system because that’s easy to do.** You’ve never actually done any real work on implementing any sort of social program, have you? I came up with the flaws because only an idiot/ideologue (identical) would try to implement any sort of system without working out how it would have to be done. > [@](#): > > **In the course of thinking of the problems of my proposal, you may have missed the point of it. Either that, or you think the point is so obvious that it shouldn’t need to be taught.** The point being that fascism is very easy to dream about but very ugly in reality. > [@](#): > > **A few other posters in this thread have touched on issues that my proposal trys to fix.** Have you ever read Swift’s _A Modest Proposal_? Your proposal reminded me a great deal of it. ---
**Author:** ![antechinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposals-for-fighting-ignorance-in-america/184064/66 "2003-06-27T01:49:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JXJohns \* > **How about a cite on that? As you look down your nose at the US, how exactly are you defining ingnorance?** Hey, I found it hard to believe too. I am following on from the other posts which had cites. From what everyone is saying, there seems to be a problem with education in the USA. By “ignorance has pervaded the whole society”, I mean of all ages and social groups, since the studies were directed at everyone, not just students. I dont think it is a good idea that people demonstrate a certain level of intelligence to vote. Democracy is about everyone having a say, even people who are normaly to disillusioned or apathetic to vote. Does anyone know if there is a problem with the USA education system? ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposals-for-fighting-ignorance-in-america/184064/67 "2003-06-27T07:21:13Z")
> [@](#): > > I mean of all ages and social groups, since the studies were directed at everyone, not just students. Again, if you are looking at a couple of polls based on curent events, I fail to see how those results are a good or even fair measure of the “ignorance” of a society. Many people believe everything they see on TV, including the news. Perhaps some of those who think that WMDs were found, saw one of the hundreds of reports regarding suspicious finds out in the desert. These were all later found to be false alarms, but if the person watching the news did not see the second story discounting the WMD find, they would still believe WMDs were present. I don’t call that ignorance, just bad timing. ---
**Author:** ![Clucky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@Clucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clucky)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposals-for-fighting-ignorance-in-america/184064/68 "2003-06-27T16:50:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JXJohns \* > \*\*Perhaps some of those who think that WMDs were found, saw one of the hundreds of reports regarding suspicious finds out in the desert. These were all later found to be false alarms, but if the person watching the news did not see the second story discounting the WMD find, they would still believe WMDs were present. > > I don’t call that ignorance, just bad timing. \*\* Well, what usually happened is that the “suspicious find” was reported prematurely, and given a lot of coverage. When the second, more accurate story came out, it didn’t get the same play. I don’t buy the bad timing argument. ---
**Author:** ![Wake\_up\_call](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/dec6dc/32.png) [@Wake\_up\_call](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wake_up_call)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposals-for-fighting-ignorance-in-america/184064/69 "2003-06-27T18:11:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by if you don’t know i won’t tell \* > \*\*I’ve found that the majority of **people** are stupid. And they like being stupid. I’m not sure how we could get people to stop inflicting ignorance upon themselves, and pull their hands off their ears and eyes, without changing that. \*\* Wow. That is a pretty sweeping statement. You want to get a glimpse of how **stupid** you yourself can be? Try to participate in [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=193009) debate currently going on SDMB. That debate is about **reality** in this world. How much do you know about that, and what can you contribute, if anything. \*\* > [@](#): > > I thought politics were pointless until I moved near a military base, and started hearing about what was **really** going on. Most of the country has no idea. \*\* How much do you think you know more than others, when it comes to politics and the US Foreign Policy? So, exactly what did living next to a military base add to your political perception? Did you become privy to the top secret documents of the NSA, CIA, DIA, MOSAD, MI6, the Rand Corporation, etc? How knowledgeable and informed do you think you are about foreign affairs when **“what is really going on”** is never revealed to ordinary citizens like you and me, even if we are active in the military, let alone merely living next to a military base. Given the above, isn’t it ironic that your SDMB thread name is _ **"if you don’t know i won’t tell"** _? Are you implying that I have to establish a “need to know” before you can “tell”? I thought that was the motto of the Intelligence agencies. ---
**Author:** ![Clu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@Clu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clu)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposals-for-fighting-ignorance-in-america/184064/70 "2003-06-27T22:54:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > **You’ve never actually done any real work on implementing any sort of social program, have you? I came up with the flaws because only an idiot/ideologue (identical) would try to implement any sort of system without working out how it would have to be done.** Uh, the title of this thread specifies proposals, not a precis. In all honesty, my intent was to voice that IMO, the problem w/ ignorance in America results from a culture that doesn’t value education. In outlining the flaws that you noticed with my proposal, you made a few stupid suggestions to discredit the spirit of my post. No, women wouldn’t be tested for pregnancy periodically. The rest of your critique seems as absurd as that. As I stated earlier, a similar program would be initiated by pre-natal checkups. If you wanted to be truly helpful, you might have taken my idea and simply scaled it down, or suggested any other number of changes. That is assuming you agree that a culture that doesn’t value intelligence contributes to ignorance in America, in addition to other assumptions. > [@](#): > > \*\* > The point being that fascism is very easy to dream about but very ugly in reality. > \*\* Honestly, I don’t know anything about the history of fascism. I would actually have to look up the dictionary definition to break this down further. IMO, we give up certain rights when a situation is deemed harmful in some way. When considering the breadth of the OP, fighting ignorance in a country, IMO you would need to AT THE VERY MINIMUM change our educational system radically. My proposal sought to educate disadvantaged mothers so that their children don’t contribute to a growing (IMO) problem. Based on this, I don’t see why coming up with a consensus for what should be taught to young/stupid parents should be equated outright w/ fascism. I also feel that forcing some parents to learn how to raise their children is preferable to forcing the children (once grown up) to a live behind bars. This is a huge generalization and I hope you don’t take this point and again run down a path of absurdity (no offense; IMO your 1st critique was absurd). > [@](#): > > \*\* > Have you ever read Swift’s _A Modest Proposal_? Your proposal reminded me a great deal of it. \*\* No I haven’t. I will check out a summary of the book on [amazon.com](http://amazon.com) and I might check it out from the library. Thanks for the suggestion. Please note that again, most people don’t need this instruction. IMO those that do need it badly. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposals-for-fighting-ignorance-in-america/184064/71 "2003-07-02T07:29:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Clucky \* > \*\*Well, what usually happened is that the “suspicious find” was reported prematurely, and given a lot of coverage. > > When the second, more accurate story came out, it didn’t get the same play. > > I don’t buy the bad timing argument. \*\* Exactly my point, people could not miss the first stories as they were broadcast every 15 minutes on all channels. When the more accurate stories were shown every six hours instead, the timing of ones news watching came into play. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposals-for-fighting-ignorance-in-america/184064/72 "2003-07-02T07:37:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by even sven \* > \*\* > So what specific strategies can be used (on a small or grand scale) to fight this ignorance? \*\* Enforced sterilization of men who have to get naked to count to 21. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposals-for-fighting-ignorance-in-america/184064.md?page=3)