# Proposed California law to restrict use of deadly force by law enforcement **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 20, 2018, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposed-california-law-to-restrict-use-of-deadly-force-by-law-enforcement/816437 "2018-06-20T12:02:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposed-california-law-to-restrict-use-of-deadly-force-by-law-enforcement/816437/61 "2018-06-21T18:40:12Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > The change that I would like to see would be that a cop when confronted with a suspect reaching into his pocket doesn’t think > “he’s reaching for something, it could be a gun, better shoot him just to be safe” > > but instead thinks > > “he’s reaching for something, it might not be a gun, better not shoot him just to be safe”. It depends on the suspects attitude, actions, and what was reported. If it has been reported he had a gun, then it’s different. If he turns, calmly raises his hands and says “Can I show you my id?” and then is shot- that’s wrong. If the suspect whirls around fast, reaching for what look like a weapon, instead of appearing to cooperate, that’s different too. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposed-california-law-to-restrict-use-of-deadly-force-by-law-enforcement/816437/62 "2018-06-21T18:41:47Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Too often, the investigations into police shootings don’t look enough at what led up to the incident. Take Tamir Rice, for instance. The police saw him, and pulled up right next to him, thus increasing the danger both to him and them. When he started reaching for his gun, he presented an apparent threat, but that threat was greatly magnified by proximity. Suppose, instead, that the cops had stopped a hundred yards away, took cover behind their car door, and shouted at him to drop everything he was holding. There’d be much less risk to both, both in the case where he really was armed and where he wasn’t, and they’d probably have been able to apprehend him peacefully. Why didn’t they do that? And should they be responsible for the fact that not doing that escalated the situation unnecessarily? They were fired and the city made a large settlement. So, yes they were held responsible for not reacting perfectly. But there was no \*criminal \*action on their part. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposed-california-law-to-restrict-use-of-deadly-force-by-law-enforcement/816437/63 "2018-06-21T18:43:39Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Can I shoot someone for no other reason than they scared me? Sure, If they are in your business or home and you “feared for you life” - you can shoot. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposed-california-law-to-restrict-use-of-deadly-force-by-law-enforcement/816437/64 "2018-06-21T18:44:52Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > I don’t think it is unreasonable to say that in decent light and within the usable range of a pistol that almost anyone can tell the difference between a gun and a cell phone. > . Nope. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposed-california-law-to-restrict-use-of-deadly-force-by-law-enforcement/816437/65 "2018-06-21T18:52:37Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Nope. I don’t consider myself very sympathetic to the police, but I agree with DrDeth on this one. If the police are trying to detain a suspect and s/he reaches into his/her back pocket and whips out some small black item and points it at the police, they only have a fraction of a second to decide whether the item is a gun or a wallet or cellphone and whether to fire on the suspect or not. It’s a VERY difficult situation. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposed-california-law-to-restrict-use-of-deadly-force-by-law-enforcement/816437/66 "2018-06-21T18:55:04Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Too often, the investigations into police shootings don’t look enough at what led up to the incident. Take Tamir Rice, for instance. The police saw him, and pulled up right next to him, thus increasing the danger both to him and them. And also increasing the likelihood that they could arrest him before he escaped and endangered someone else. As well as the likelihood that if shooting him was necessary, they would hit him. And decreasing their ability to tell a toy Airsoft gun that had been modified to look real from a real gun. > [@](#): > > … they’d probably have been able to apprehend him peacefully. I don’t see how being a hundred yards away makes it more probable that an arrest can be made peacefully than being much closer. > [@](#): > > And should they be responsible for the fact that not doing that escalated the situation unnecessarily? Not in my opinion. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposed-california-law-to-restrict-use-of-deadly-force-by-law-enforcement/816437/67 "2018-06-21T18:55:26Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Sure, If they are in your business or home and you “feared for you life” - you can shoot. So I can only fear for my life in my business or my home? Nowhere else? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposed-california-law-to-restrict-use-of-deadly-force-by-law-enforcement/816437/68 "2018-06-21T19:00:03Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > So I can only fear for my life in my business or my home? Nowhere else? Depends on the laws and the circumstances. ymmv, ianal. I mean if a guy does pull a gun on you in a ally, certainly. Note that the Police, when on the job, are in their “business”. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposed-california-law-to-restrict-use-of-deadly-force-by-law-enforcement/816437/69 "2018-06-21T19:01:05Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I don’t consider myself very sympathetic to the police, but I agree with DrDeth on this one. If the police are trying to detain a suspect and s/he reaches into his/her back pocket and whips out some small black item and points it at the police, they only have a fraction of a second to decide whether the item is a gun or a wallet or cellphone and whether to fire on the suspect or not. It’s a VERY difficult situation. Yep. Now if he does it slowly and calmly and says: “Hey I am taking out my phone” then that is different. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposed-california-law-to-restrict-use-of-deadly-force-by-law-enforcement/816437/70 "2018-06-21T19:01:35Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Depends on the laws and the circumstances. ymmv, ianal. I mean if a guy does pull a gun on you in a ally, certainly. What if he’s reaching into his wristband and I think it could be a gun? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposed-california-law-to-restrict-use-of-deadly-force-by-law-enforcement/816437/71 "2018-06-21T19:02:17Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Sure, If they are in your business or home and you “feared for you life” - you can shoot. Is that the same standard that is applied to police? Or can they shoot anyone, anywhere if they fear for their life? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposed-california-law-to-restrict-use-of-deadly-force-by-law-enforcement/816437/72 "2018-06-21T19:05:20Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Depends on the laws and the circumstances. ymmv, ianal. I mean if a guy does pull a gun on you in a ally, certainly. > > Note that the Police, when on the job, are in their “business”. I thought police were always technically “on duty”? So everywhere they are at any time, they are in their “business”? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposed-california-law-to-restrict-use-of-deadly-force-by-law-enforcement/816437/73 "2018-06-21T19:10:13Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **adaher** : > > I think they should, but that they should be fired and face civil suits rather than criminal responsibility. I don’t think government workers should be prosecuted for doing their jobs badly. They should be fired. If a postal worker does his job poorly, some people might have to wait a day or two longer than they should to get their mail. If a police officer does his job poorly, someone might have to bury their kid. Absolutely there should be greater consequence for that. > [@](#): > > Quoth **DrDeth** : > > Philando Castile told the officer he had a gun and even said he was reaching for it. The officer overreacted and was charged and acquitted, however the officer was fired. No. He told the officer he had a gun, then the officer asked for his ID, then he reached for his ID as requested, then the officer panicked and shot him. > [@](#): > > Quoth **Shodan** : > > And also increasing the likelihood that they could arrest him before he escaped and endangered someone else. As well as the likelihood that if shooting him was necessary, they would hit him. And decreasing their ability to tell a toy Airsoft gun that had been modified to look real from a real gun. All of which would have been irrelevant if they had properly maintained their distance. If he runs, then you get back in the car and follow him at a safe distance: He can’t outrun the car. The whole point of being able to shoot him is to prevent him from shooting them, which would already be accomplished by keeping a distance. And determining whether the object he held is a real gun is only necessary if he’s within dangerous range. They screwed up, and because of that, a kid died. When people die because of other people screwing up, there are usually criminal charges for the person who screwed up. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposed-california-law-to-restrict-use-of-deadly-force-by-law-enforcement/816437/74 "2018-06-21T19:11:23Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > What if he’s reaching into his wristband and I think it could be a gun? It depends. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposed-california-law-to-restrict-use-of-deadly-force-by-law-enforcement/816437/75 "2018-06-21T19:12:46Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Is that the same standard that is applied to police? Or can they shoot anyone, anywhere if they fear for their life? The street is their business. They are supposed to be there, protecting you. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposed-california-law-to-restrict-use-of-deadly-force-by-law-enforcement/816437/76 "2018-06-21T19:12:58Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > It depends. On what? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposed-california-law-to-restrict-use-of-deadly-force-by-law-enforcement/816437/77 "2018-06-21T19:17:52Z")
Note that there are (per FBI) 1,248,185 violent crimes per year. There are less than 500 officer shootings. You are 2500 times more likely to be a victim of a violent crime than a police shooting. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposed-california-law-to-restrict-use-of-deadly-force-by-law-enforcement/816437/78 "2018-06-21T19:19:12Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > On what? Facts & circumstances, police regulations, state & local laws, court ruling, common law, etc etc. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposed-california-law-to-restrict-use-of-deadly-force-by-law-enforcement/816437/79 "2018-06-21T19:22:40Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Facts & circumstances, police regulations, state & local laws, court ruling, common law, etc etc. I was walking down a dark alley in Houston, Texas, saw a guy stealing a TV worth $5000. I yelled “Freeze!” and then he dropped the TV and put his hand in his waistband. I immediately feared for my life and shot him. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2018, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposed-california-law-to-restrict-use-of-deadly-force-by-law-enforcement/816437/80 "2018-06-21T19:24:35Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I was walking down a dark alley in Houston, Texas, saw a guy stealing a TV worth $5000. I yelled “Freeze!” and then he dropped the TV and put his hand in his waistband. I immediately feared for my life and shot him. That’s rather tragic. Sorry. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposed-california-law-to-restrict-use-of-deadly-force-by-law-enforcement/816437.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposed-california-law-to-restrict-use-of-deadly-force-by-law-enforcement/816437.md?page=5)