# Proposed law to eliminate US citizenship by birthright **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 27, 2009, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposed-law-to-eliminate-us-citizenship-by-birthright/497786 "2009-05-27T13:22:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposed-law-to-eliminate-us-citizenship-by-birthright/497786/41 "2009-05-27T16:14:54Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > BTW, I am still intrigued by the concept of someone walking around within our borders who is “not subject to the jurisdiction” of the United Sates. I would ahve to assume that the individual states’s jursdictions would be inluded among the United States. Here’s a blog post which argues that “subject to the jurisdiction” in that clause means and has meant “owing allegance to; not a subject of a foreign power” [http://federalistblog.us/2007/09/revisiting\_subject\_to\_the\_jurisdiction.html](http://federalistblog.us/2007/09/revisiting_subject_to_the_jurisdiction.html) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposed-law-to-eliminate-us-citizenship-by-birthright/497786/42 "2009-05-27T16:17:16Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > No, I don’t think so. It just came up in the news in the past couple of days, that judge Sotomayor had upheld the law in one of her decisions. I will look for a cite. That’s the one- the [Mexico City Policy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico_City_Policy) (or Doctrine). It’s no longer in effect thanks to Obama, incidentally. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposed-law-to-eliminate-us-citizenship-by-birthright/497786/43 "2009-05-27T16:46:23Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > The other major exception is members of invading armed forces (as I mentioned above). If Canada declared war on the US, and sent some troops to invade the US, and among those troops (or support personnel) there was a pregnant woman who gave birth while in the US, that baby would not a US citizen. Sorry, I had read, but forgot, your post. So that would mean that no, other than diplomats there are no human beings in America with that status at present. Though I bet you could get a lot of buy-in (among the same group that would support this bill) to the concept that Mexicans are an invading army. ---
**Author:** ![Laudenum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7993a0/32.png) [@Laudenum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laudenum)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposed-law-to-eliminate-us-citizenship-by-birthright/497786/44 "2009-05-27T18:51:50Z")
We had a similar situation in Ireland (if you were born in the country, you became a citizen). We had a referendum to change it which passed by 80%. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposed-law-to-eliminate-us-citizenship-by-birthright/497786/45 "2009-05-27T19:04:47Z")
Indian tribes were the other group that wasn’t “subject to the jurisdiction” of the United States back when the Amendment was crafted. However the Indian Wars put an end to that and all Indians/Native Americans are today American citizens. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposed-law-to-eliminate-us-citizenship-by-birthright/497786/46 "2009-05-27T19:18:38Z")
I think it’s a bad idea, but many countries have similar laws. Japan is one. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposed-law-to-eliminate-us-citizenship-by-birthright/497786/47 "2009-05-27T19:26:51Z")
Err isn’t there a bit of a gotcha here. OK so this passes and is found to be constitutional. A big swathe of society are no longer citizens, but they are also NO LONGER UNDER THE JURISDICTION OF THE US. Doesn’t that mean, almost by definition, they cannot be tried for any crimes they commit ? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposed-law-to-eliminate-us-citizenship-by-birthright/497786/48 "2009-05-27T19:27:56Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > Err isn’t there a bit of a gotcha here. OK so this passes and is found to be constitutional. A big swathe of society are no longer citizens, but they are also NO LONGER UNDER THE JURISDICTION OF THE US. Doesn’t that mean, almost by definition, they cannot be tried for any crimes they commit ? No. Do you imagine a German tourist, a non-US citizen, here visiting New York, cannot be tried for a crime he commits while here? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposed-law-to-eliminate-us-citizenship-by-birthright/497786/49 "2009-05-27T19:28:02Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > Err isn’t there a bit of a gotcha here. OK so this passes and is found to be constitutional. A big swathe of society are no longer citizens, but they are also NO LONGER UNDER THE JURISDICTION OF THE US. Doesn’t that mean, almost by definition, they cannot be tried for any crimes they commit ? It won’t remove citizenship from people who are already citizens, FTR. ---
**Author:** ![kenner116](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecb155/32.png) [@kenner116](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenner116)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposed-law-to-eliminate-us-citizenship-by-birthright/497786/50 "2009-05-27T19:30:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. Do you imagine a German tourist, a non-US citizen, here visiting New York, cannot be tried for a crime he commits while here? I assume he would be tried under a German court. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposed-law-to-eliminate-us-citizenship-by-birthright/497786/51 "2009-05-27T19:34:54Z")
> [@kenner116](#): > > I assume he would be tried under a German court. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposed-law-to-eliminate-us-citizenship-by-birthright/497786/52 "2009-05-27T19:38:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. Do you imagine a German tourist, a non-US citizen, here visiting New York, cannot be tried for a crime he commits while here? Isn’t any foreign visitor, while visiting the US, under or within the jurisdiction of the United States? Or have we been abusing the term? ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mike\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mike_H)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposed-law-to-eliminate-us-citizenship-by-birthright/497786/53 "2009-05-27T19:44:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. Do you imagine a German tourist, a non-US citizen, here visiting New York, cannot be tried for a crime he commits while here? Such a tourist would be subject to the juristiction of the United States. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposed-law-to-eliminate-us-citizenship-by-birthright/497786/54 "2009-05-27T19:48:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. Do you imagine a German tourist, a non-US citizen, here visiting New York, cannot be tried for a crime he commits while here? I think you are misunderstanding the post you are replying to. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposed-law-to-eliminate-us-citizenship-by-birthright/497786/55 "2009-05-27T20:05:33Z")
> [@kenner116](#): > > I assume he would be tried under a German court. No – he would be tried in a court having jurisdiction over the place where the alleged crime took place. For example, a German citizen committing a crime with the death penalty in the US would be liable for the death penalty, even though there’s no death penalty in Germany. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposed-law-to-eliminate-us-citizenship-by-birthright/497786/56 "2009-05-27T20:59:42Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > No – he would be tried in a court having jurisdiction over the place where the alleged crime took place. For example, a German citizen committing a crime with the death penalty in the US would be liable for the death penalty, even though there’s no death penalty in Germany. Unless he wasn’t apprehended until he was back in Germany. Germany would not extradite him without assurance that he would not get the death penalty. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposed-law-to-eliminate-us-citizenship-by-birthright/497786/57 "2009-05-27T21:00:07Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Isn’t any foreign visitor, while visiting the US, under or within the jurisdiction of the United States? Or have we been abusing the term? I would have assumed so - but wouldn’t this law _change_ that? I mean, it says quite explicitly that these people aren’t under our jurisdiction… ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposed-law-to-eliminate-us-citizenship-by-birthright/497786/58 "2009-05-27T21:11:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. Do you imagine a German tourist, a non-US citizen, here visiting New York, cannot be tried for a crime he commits while here? No, but he IS under the jurisdiction of the US as the law stands at the moment. If (assuming it was actually a she not a he :)) they have a baby while they are in the US that baby has rights to full US citizenship. This bill would change that. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposed-law-to-eliminate-us-citizenship-by-birthright/497786/59 "2009-05-27T21:13:03Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. Do you imagine a German tourist, a non-US citizen, here visiting New York, cannot be tried for a crime he commits while here? I think we realize this _obviously_ should not be true, but what _is_ the effect of a person not being “subject to the jurisdiction” of the United States? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposed-law-to-eliminate-us-citizenship-by-birthright/497786/60 "2009-05-27T22:22:24Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I would have assumed so - but wouldn’t this law _change_ that? I mean, it says quite explicitly that these people aren’t under our jurisdiction… No, it says babies born here to a foreign mother aren’t under US jurisdiction. So a foreigner who simply hops over for a visit IS under our jurisdiction (I think) and subject to our laws. However, we have yet to get any definitive (ie lawyerly) opinion on just what it means to be here and NOT under the jurisdiction of US law. Maybe he would still be under jurisdiction of state laws, and so only could slaughter with impunity in the District of Columbia? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposed-law-to-eliminate-us-citizenship-by-birthright/497786.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proposed-law-to-eliminate-us-citizenship-by-birthright/497786.md?page=4)