# Props for Canadians **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 31, 2021, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/props-for-canadians/956997 "2021-12-31T18:38:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![civilis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@civilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/civilis)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2021, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/props-for-canadians/956997/1 "2021-12-31T18:38:40Z")
The rest of the world doesn’t pay much attention to Canada, but I just crunched some numbers that blew me away and gave me a sense of pride and comfort for my fellow citizens for whom I feel grateful. This morning I read that Canada lost 27 people to Covid and at the same time CNN reports that 1268 Americans succumbed to the virus. The difference is staggering so I wanted to find out how Canada, presently a cold winter country, is doing compared to a few other developed countries. Deaths per 1,000,000 People Yesterday Canada …0.71 Netherlands…2.35 France…2.77 USA…3.80 Germany…3.95 Britain…4.66 ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2021, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/props-for-canadians/956997/2 "2021-12-31T18:48:34Z")
That’s really cool. What is the percentage vaccinated? Has air travel been restricted? Has ground travel been locked down at all? ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2021, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/props-for-canadians/956997/3 "2021-12-31T18:57:50Z")
The problem is that Canadians are too polite to tell us how to clean up our act. ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2021, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/props-for-canadians/956997/4 "2021-12-31T19:04:31Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > What is the percentage vaccinated? > Has air travel been restricted? > Has ground travel been locked down at all? We’re at 80+% fully vaccinated, 87% of eligible (5 and older) have at least one shot. About 30% are boosted. Air travel and long distance trains (overnight) require full vaccination. On the other hand, at least here in Ontario, the government has just given up on testing. Unless you are high risk (congregate living, First Nations, etc) you are no longer eligible for a PCR test. If you are symptomatic, you need to presume you are positive and isolate for 5 days. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2021, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/props-for-canadians/956997/5 "2021-12-31T19:09:45Z")
Canadians are more spread out, and we have far less reliance on mass transit as in the large American cities. Canadians are less obese than Americans, and likely have lower rates of diabetes and other confounding illnesses. Directly related to the pandemic, Canadians tend to be more obediant and follow pubkic health practices. But it’s not clear that this has much to do with it. No one should be taking a victory lap here. This disease is confounding experts, and we still don’t really understand why some places have been hit harder than others. Some locations that came through the first wave relatively well crowed about their superiority, only to get slammed in a subsequent wave. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2021, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/props-for-canadians/956997/6 "2021-12-31T20:18:37Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Canadians are more spread out, and we have far less reliance on mass transit as in the large American cities. That was my second thought. The first was that there are 38 million Canadians and 330 million citizens of the USA. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2021, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/props-for-canadians/956997/7 "2021-12-31T20:47:10Z")
Canada has a little under 800 deaths per million people due to Coronavirus, the US almost three times as much. There should be no pleasure taken in this. > **[COVID Live - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer](https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/)** > > Live statistics and coronavirus news tracking the number of confirmed cases, recovered patients, tests, and death toll due to the COVID-19 coronavirus from Wuhan, China. Coronavirus counter with new cases, deaths, and number of tests per 1 Million... Canadians are fairly compliant. (How do you get thirty Canadians out of a pool? Ask them to get out of the pool.). Most wear masks and social distance; about 80% are fully vaccinated. Americans know what to do and do not require lectures that they will ignore from people who could be doing still better. Everyone has done a fairly bad job making vaccines globally available and attractive. ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2021, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/props-for-canadians/956997/8 "2021-12-31T21:23:21Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Canadians are more spread out, and we have far less reliance on mass transit as in the large American cities. I’d debate this Sam. 55% of the population lives in just 10 population areas across the country. > **[List of census metropolitan areas and agglomerations in Canada](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_census_metropolitan_areas_and_agglomerations_in_Canada)** > > This is a list of the census metropolitan areas and agglomerations in Canada by population, using data from the 2021 Canadian census and the 2016 Canadian census. Each entry is identified as a census metropolitan area (CMA) or a census agglomeration (CA) as defined by Statistics Canada. > A city's metropolitan area in colloquial or administrative terms may be different from its CMA as defined by Statistics Canada, resulting in differing populations. Such is the case with the Greater Toronto Are... ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2021, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/props-for-canadians/956997/9 "2021-12-31T21:30:38Z")
Re population density: check out this map. [![](https://www.boredpanda.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/5f86bf286fe9e_zyuo1lup6gbz__700.jpg) ](https://www.boredpanda.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/5f86bf286fe9e_zyuo1lup6gbz__700.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2021, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/props-for-canadians/956997/10 "2021-12-31T21:59:27Z")
Yeah, but our cities are generally huge and don’t rely on mass transit nearly as much. For example, New York city has a population density of about 11,000 people per square km. San Fransisco has 7,100. The densest city in Canada is Vancouver, at 5400. About the same as Boston. The big prairie cities like Calgary are way lower. Calgary is at 1872. Edmonton has the same population as Calgary, but more spread out, We didn’t even make the top 50. How extensive is public transit in Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal, compared to New York or other large American cities? All that said, I don’t know if population density is the factor. Maybe it’s climatev, or demographic makeup, or some complex combination of things we can’t even see. > **[room-to-grow-comparing-urban-density-in-canada-and-abroad.pdf](https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/room-to-grow-comparing-urban-density-in-canada-and-abroad.pdf)** > > 2.70 MB ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2022, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/props-for-canadians/956997/11 "2022-01-01T23:11:38Z")
Having grown up in Philadelphia and lived in NY and Montreal, I would say that, given the difference in populations our system in Montreal is better than Philly and pretty comparable to that of NY. From the little time I have spent in Chicago, I would say we are much better than that. I think the difference is the way people credit the authorities. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2022, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/props-for-canadians/956997/12 "2022-01-01T23:17:34Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > I think the difference is the way people credit the authorities. That’s part of it, but we Canadians are also, on average, less reflexively oppositional. I mean, take a look at almost any US-based “fight” video you can find on the internet. The vast majority of them would never have been a fight, except the usual American response to anyone asking them to do anything is, “Who the fuck are you to tell me to do anything!?!?” Ask a Canadian to do something, and we’ll usually take at least a moment to think about if it’s a reasonable request or not. Americans leap to assuming the worst much, much quicker. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2022, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/props-for-canadians/956997/13 "2022-01-02T03:34:33Z")
> [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > If you are symptomatic, you need to presume you are positive and isolate for 5 days. This is a suggestion of course, it’s not some sort of law. > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > That was my second thought. The first was that there are 38 million Canadians and 330 million citizens of the USA. There are fewer people in Texas than in Canada, it has about the same number of equivalently large cities, and no more dependence on mass transit there than in Canada, but vastly more COVID-19 deaths. Illinois, which has a little lower population than Ontario, about the same climate, and which has a single large city about the same size and which is even geographically similar in layout, has has three times the COVID deaths as Ontario. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2022, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/props-for-canadians/956997/14 "2022-01-02T04:42:11Z")
Having spent extensive time in Montreal, I would say they are very heavy users of public transit. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2022, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/props-for-canadians/956997/15 "2022-01-02T05:13:27Z")
Same for Toronto, where I lived for some 40-odd years. After experiencing the sardine can that is a Toronto subway car during morning and afternoon rush hour, I’d say that transit is heavily used in Toronto. Same for the GO system; having commuted into downtown Toronto from Stouffville for some years, I was lucky to be getting on at the start of the trip, where I was pretty much guaranteed a seat–by the time we got to Markham, there were people standing. That being said, I think that **Sam** has a point. As I recall, Sam is in Edmonton, where I lived for three years, and Edmonton’s transit system, to put it plainly, sucks. Instead of running on major arteries, as they do in Toronto, Edmonton buses meander through residential neighbourhoods, taking 60 minutes to get someplace that would be a 15 or 20 minute car ride. Edmonton’s LRT train is great when you can catch one–outside of rush hours, and especially on weekends, you’re looking at 15 to 30 minutes between trains. Things may have changed since I lived there 13 years ago, and I hope they have, but I somehow doubt it. These meandering routes for buses and long “between train” times would not fly in Toronto, where, if one has to wait more than five minutes for a subway train (three minutes during rush hours), numerous complaints will result. Nor, I suspect, would it fly in Montreal. So it doesn’t, and as a result, Torontonians and Montrealers heavily use their respective transit systems because trains and buses are fast and frequent and get them where they want to go as quickly as they can. Given the choice of public transit with its infrequent service and meandering routes, or driving themselves the shortest distance between two points when they want to travel, I’m not surprised that Edmontonians prefer their cars, and have a low opinion of public transit in general. ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2022, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/props-for-canadians/956997/16 "2022-01-02T12:19:07Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > This is a suggestion of course, it’s not some sort of law. It’s certainly a law here in Toronto, punishable by a $5000/day fine: > Through a Class Order issued by the Medical Officer of Health, individuals who have COVID-19 who are not hospitalized, who have symptoms and are waiting for test results, who have had close contact with someone diagnosed with COVID-19, or who are otherwise instructed by Toronto Public Health to self-isolate are ordered to self-isolate at home or in an isolation facility. People who have mild or moderate illness must isolate for 10 days beginning on the day after symptoms started, or 10 days beginning on the day after they receive a positive test if they do not have symptoms. People who have severe illness or are severely immuno-compromised must isolate for 20 days beginning on the day after their symptoms start. Close contacts must isolate for 10 days beginning on the day after their last contact with someone who is diagnosed with COVID-19. Close contacts who are [fully vaccinated](https://www.toronto.ca/home/covid-19/covid-19-vaccines/covid-19-benefits-of-getting-vaccinated/?accordion=fully-vaccinated-in-ontario) or had a recent COVID-19 infection may not need to self-isolate. > > Failure to comply with the order is subject to a fine of up to $5,000 for every day or part of each day on which the offence occurs or continues. [https://www.toronto.ca/home/covid-19/covid-19-how-you-can-help/covid-19-orders-directives-by-laws/](https://www.toronto.ca/home/covid-19/covid-19-how-you-can-help/covid-19-orders-directives-by-laws/) ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2022, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/props-for-canadians/956997/17 "2022-01-02T18:12:43Z")
> [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > It’s certainly a law here in Toronto, punishable by a $5000/day fine: Your own cite does not merely describe anyone “who has symptoms,” though. It would specifically apply to anyone who is symptomatic and _has been tested and is awaiting results._ For a moment, consider how preposterous and unenforceable it would be to order anyone with a symptom to self-isolate. MOST people in January have at least one symptom of COVID-19; it’s cold. I have a symptom at the end of every day - a mildly sore throat - because my N95 mask dries me out. ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2022, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/props-for-canadians/956997/18 "2022-01-02T18:39:41Z")
So here is Halton’s rule, slightly different wording: > Who is required to self-isolate under this class order? > The June 16, 2021 order applies to all persons residing in or present in Halton Region who: > a. Are a confirmed case or probable case of COVID-19; > b. Have new symptoms (even mild symptoms) or worsening symptoms of COVID-19, have been tested > for COVID-19 and are awaiting the results of their test; > c. Otherwise have reasonable grounds to believe they now have symptoms (even mild symptoms) of > COVID-19, or have had such symptoms within the past 10 days; > d. Are a close contact of a person identified in (a) even if they do not themselves have any symptoms > of COVID-19; > e. Have been advised to self-isolate by Halton Region Public Health in circumstances other than those > in a., b., c. or d. above; or > f. Are a parent, or person with responsibilities of a parent, of a person under sixteen years of age > identified in a., b., c., d. or e. who resides or is present in Halton Region. > People in Categories a., b., c., d. and e. above must self-isolate and follow other directions in the class order. This clearly includes probable cases and it is not optional. Under provincial guidelines, symptomatic individuals are presumed positive. [https://www.halton.ca/Repository/HE-Class-Order-Fact-sheet-June-16-2021](https://www.halton.ca/Repository/HE-Class-Order-Fact-sheet-June-16-2021) Practicalities aside, you must admit that there is an actual law here.