# Pros and cons of ethnic pride **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 26, 2017, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274 "2017-04-26T11:50:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/21 "2017-04-26T15:15:45Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Tribalism is evil. All the anti-tribalists should band together to fight the tribalists. Not all tribalists-just the extremists. Kill the extremists! ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/22 "2017-04-26T15:21:23Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > In my opinion there is nothing wrong with feeling pride in a group’s contributions/accomplishments that lift up the whole community(or even mankind itself), especially if you play an active part in that group. If the group “pride” you subscribe to has something to do with being superior to other groups, past, present or future, then I am generally against it. But doesnt every group build up its accomplishments? I am proud of what so many Germans did in science, music, and the arts. So yes, in some ways Germans have done more for the world than others. What is wrong with that? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/23 "2017-04-26T15:30:32Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > But doesnt every group build up its accomplishments? > > I am proud of what so many Germans did in science, music, and the arts. So yes, in some ways Germans have done more for the world than others. > > What is wrong with that? Nothing is wrong with the former, but the latter seems to indicate that “superiority to all others” problem. Again, as long as that pride doesn’t _also_ include being proud of being superior to others, or doing ill to/wishing ill on others, I’ve got no problem. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/24 "2017-04-26T15:35:47Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > But doesnt every group build up its accomplishments? > > I am proud of what so many Germans did in science, music, and the arts. So yes, in some ways Germans have done more for the world than others. > > What is wrong with that? You know who else thought Germans have done more for the world than others? 😃 That was a soft balled lobbed right across the plate!! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/25 "2017-04-26T15:39:09Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > But doesnt every group build up its accomplishments? > > I am proud of what so many Germans did in science, music, and the arts. So yes, in some ways Germans have done more for the world than others. > > What is wrong with that? This brings up another problem I have with ethnic pride – expectations for its converse, ethnic shame. If you feel pride in the accomplishments of Germans, do you similarly feel shame for the atrocities of Germans? If not, why do you feel one but not the other? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/26 "2017-04-26T15:43:20Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This brings up another problem I have with ethnic pride – expectations for its converse, ethnic shame. If you feel pride in the accomplishments of Germans, do you similarly feel shame for the atrocities of Germans? If not, why do you feel one but not the other? You should feel pride in your accomplishments, until you forget how to achieve them, and you should feel shame for your atrocities, until you learn how not to commit them. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/27 "2017-04-26T15:44:05Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’ve not met any of the Jewish faith that said that being the “Chosen People” made them superior to others. When I was but a small child, I found out my family was Jewish; I also found out that Jews were referred to as “The Chosen People”. I therefore asked my fellow Jews just what the heck we were chosen _for_. The prompt reply: “To suffer.” ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/28 "2017-04-26T15:53:51Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’ve not met any of the Jewish faith that said that being the “Chosen People” made them superior to others. Ahem… Shalom! ;)\* > [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > When I was but a small child, I found out my family was Jewish; I also found out that Jews were referred to as “The Chosen People”. I therefore asked my fellow Jews just what the heck we were chosen _for_. The prompt reply: “To suffer.” …And hooo-boy, nobody suffers like us Jews. ;)\* (…I kid! I kid!) ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/29 "2017-04-26T16:00:03Z")
Back to the OP: It’s been my experience that those who exhibit the most pride in their ethnic group’s accomplishments are also typically the ones who have contributed the least towards its relative success. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/30 "2017-04-26T16:05:33Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > One good aspect is that it can encourage good behavior and hard work. For example Jewish people are probably the most successful ethnic group in the world. One part of their culture is the sense of superiority, that they are the “chosen people.” Because of this there is a taboo against acting in a way that would dishonor the group in the eyes of the gentiles. This would be known as being a shonda fur die goyim. This internalized fear of shame prevents bad behavior and encourages good behavior. I’ve always understood this in exactly the opposite way. Jews have been so hatred, oppressed, and ostracized by Christians that they have large internal pressures not to give them any possible visual reasons for acting on those hatreds. Being the “chosen people” may help internally keep individuals in the faith even when there is societal pressures to leave but that’s not why they try to appear virtuous. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/31 "2017-04-26T16:11:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Spinoff from this thread: > > **SlackerInc** expressed pride in his Northern European heritage. I challenged and criticized such ethnic pride (cut and paste from my post in the thread): > > I think such pride can increase the likelihood of these horrific ends – > > After some thought, I came up with a possible positive for ethnic pride, but only for oppressed minority populations – ethnic pride might offer some sense of cohesion, community, protection, and optimism among populations with little chance to acquire these qualities otherwise. But I can’t think of any positives for non-opppressed majority groups, like Northern Europeans. I saw the poster refer directly to ‘Northern European ethnic pride’ but this makes limited sense since NE isn’t an ethnicity and I doubt this is common. It might even have been clarified elsewhere the poster actually referred to a specific nationality but even if not this is just one person. So that’s one weakness I see in your argument, a strange example. And the other is more basic. Of course you are entitled to slice and dice this issue any way you like and draw your own conclusions, but IMO once you open it up to ‘possible positives for oppressed groups’ that’s almost endlessly elastic. Then if you’re saying it’s ‘a positive aspect’ but still outweighed by negatives even for those ‘oppressed’ group members, why even mention that? Just say it’s bad. But I don’t agree it’s necessarily bad for anyone depending on the orientation of the pride. If it’s benignly oriented (the person particularly likes the art, music, traditional dress, cuisine, etc of ‘their’ group is ‘proud’ of that) what’s the harm? I think you’d have to do more to convince that a hostile or exclusionary attitude naturally follows. IME that’s not the case. Whereas, again IME, a lot of people on your general side of the left-right fence _do_ excuse outright hostile and exclusionary group based attitudes as long as by they consider ‘oppressed’ groups. A lot of this is ‘know it when you see it’. When I see negative statements about ‘white people’ accepted n in polite PC company that never would be about other groups, I see those as negative attitudes the people expressing them to need to lose. When I see some person marching in the Korean day parade, I think that’s fine. Which might get back as well to defining ‘oppressed group’. If you’re going to say Koreans or Jews are ‘oppressed’ in US society, then you are really defining ‘oppressed’ as everyone but non-Jewish whites, maybe subject to some special pleading that one’s group now considered ‘regular white’ didn’t used to be at some time in the past (Irish or Italians, ‘oppressed’? used to be ‘oppressed’ but their victim cards have expired?). So it’s back to ‘whites v everyone else’ which the particular poster’s statement might seem to lend itself to, but again I question whether that one example is broadly representative. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/32 "2017-04-26T16:19:21Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > So it’s back to ‘whites v everyone else’ which the particular poster’s statement might seem to lend itself to, but again I question whether that one example is broadly representative. I suppose that it all depends on your definition of “broadly”, but white nationalist views are not exactly rare in western society. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/33 "2017-04-26T16:20:16Z")
I can only be proud of being Han Chinese when I’m in the USA, but not when in China/Taiwan/Singapore? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/34 "2017-04-26T16:24:13Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I can only be proud of being Han Chinese when I’m in the USA, but not when in China/Taiwan/Singapore? I don’t think anyone is saying that. What is it that you are proud of when it comes to that group? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/35 "2017-04-26T16:24:22Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If you feel pride in the accomplishments of Germans, do you similarly feel shame for the atrocities of Germans? If not, why do you feel one but not the other? By this logic, can someone be proud of being Hispanic but not feel shame about MS-13, drug trafficking, etc.? Not being sarcastic - genuine question, since that’s what you’re implying. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/36 "2017-04-26T16:29:01Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > By this logic, can someone be proud of being Hispanic but not feel shame about MS-13, drug trafficking, etc.? Not being sarcastic - genuine question, since that’s what you’re implying. Are those unique in any way to Hispanics? Are these things openly opposed by Hispanic groups, or are these problems just not mentioned at all when it comes to Hispanic Pride? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/37 "2017-04-26T16:31:46Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > By this logic, can someone be proud of being Hispanic but not feel shame about MS-13, drug trafficking, etc.? Not being sarcastic - genuine question, since that’s what you’re implying. I find the idea of ethnic pride – being proud of nothing but the blood which you had nothing to do with – very strange. But a fondness, appreciation, and celebration of food, music, language, art, culture, etc.? I’m not sure if that’s the same thing, and I don’t see any negatives to such positive celebrations of culture. But at the very least I’d find it inconsistent if someone was proud of the good things people of their same “blood” have done but totally disavow and have no shame for the bad things, in addition to finding the ‘pride in blood’ concept unfortunate due to all the terrible things in history that have been associated with it. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/38 "2017-04-26T16:32:11Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I suppose that it all depends on your definition of “broadly”, but white nationalist views are not exactly rare in western society. It isn’t about going down the rabbit hole of debating how rare ‘white nationalist’ views are in western society or in particular the US\*. It’s whether ‘white nationalist’ views is a reasonable general proxy for ‘ethnic pride’. I would say no. A discussion of ‘white nationalism’ would be a different one than ‘ethnic pride’ generally. It would seem the OP could have said he wanted to discuss ‘white nationalism’ if that was the case. Instead he gave one poster’s (still unusual IMO/IME) expression of NE ‘ethnic pride’ to start a discussion of ‘ethnic pride’ broadly, not ‘white nationalism’. \*I’m pretty sure the protagonists in the original disagreement are both Americans, besides which there’s more of a distinction between ‘white’ and ethnicity in the US (or Canada, Australia etc) than say Germany, Denmark etc which rose as nation states of a particular narrow ethnicity (they have their own ethnic/linguistic minorities, but ‘white’ still isn’t as diverse there as the Anglo Saxon ex-European colony countries). ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/39 "2017-04-26T16:36:09Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I don’t think anyone is saying that. But it follows. Han Chinese people are a minority in the USA. Han Chinese people are the majority in China/Taiwan/Singapore, and especially in the instance of China and Taiwan, they have been perceived as oppressors/privileged, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/40 "2017-04-26T16:37:33Z")
> [@somepumpkin](#): > > As a con, I’m reminded of [The Pale Blue Dot](http://www.planetary.org/explore/space-topics/earth/pale-blue-dot.html). > There is little value in separating ourselves and much to be gained by a sense of unity. This. There’s value in discussing “privilege.” But taking it too far, is divisive, which is contrary to what people who bring up “privilege” usually advocate - unless they actually want division rather than unity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274.md?page=3)