# Pros and cons of ethnic pride **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 26, 2017, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274 "2017-04-26T11:50:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/41 "2017-04-26T16:38:02Z")
I suspect part of the problem with discussing ‘ethnic pride’ is defining what it means. I am proud of my heritage, in a ‘Wow that is kinda cool way’. However I do not define myself by that heritage. My heritage is largely\* Swedish and Native American. I do not define myself as Swedish (or more generally Nordic) or Native American. None of the actions of my Swedish or Native American ancestors are mine and I don’t feel any particular pride, or shame, for things that they might have done in the past. I know that some other folks seem to want to define themselves by their heritage. Those folks are ‘Swedish-American’ or whatever and want to claim the successes of their heritage for their own. I think that we have a definitional problem, where some are using the "Wow, that is kinda cool’ version of ethnic pride while the other is discussing the ‘My ancestors did X and therefore I rock’ version. Slee \*With some other stuff thrown in to ensure that I am the stunningly handsome and smart person I turned out to be. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/42 "2017-04-26T16:41:14Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > But it follows. > > Han Chinese people are a minority in the USA. > > Han Chinese people are the majority in China/Taiwan/Singapore, and especially in the instance of China and Taiwan, they have been perceived as oppressors/privileged, etc. Do you take any pride in what happened in the past? Do you disapprove of what happened in the past? Is your pride in the positive accomplishments of the Han Chinese here in the U.S.? There is pride to be found in overcoming past indiscretions, I think. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/43 "2017-04-26T16:43:12Z")
I see ethnic pride as something akin to flatulence. I think it is normal to feel pride in one’s culture or subculture, just as a it is normal to produce flatulence. But just like flatuence, it is best kept to oneself, if you don’t want to irritate or offend. I think we need to define “ethnic pride”, though, so we can make sure we’re all in agreement about what we’re talking about. Like, I don’t think feeling pride in one’s blond hair and blue eyes is “ethnic pride”, since multiple ethnicties that are only tenuously connected to each other exhibit these traits. But feeling pride in, say, bagpipes or haggis would count. I also think there’s a difference between pride as a boastful expression and pride as a statement of acceptance in defiance of stigma. Like, when I hear a statement like “I am black and I’m proud”, I don’t hear “I am glad that I’m not white” or “Black is better than white.” Instead, I hear “I’m not ashamed of being black.” A statement like this only makes sense if there is a prevailing notion or belief that being in a certain group is shameful or especially burdensome. So I wouldn’t expect to hear “I’m white and I’m proud” in polite company. If someone told me they feel pride in their pale skin and light-colored eyes and hair, I would probably ask them why they’re telling me this and what would they like for me to say in responsse. I don’t think any feeling is right or wrong, but not every feeling needs to be expressed. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/44 "2017-04-26T16:48:02Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I also think there’s a difference between pride as a boastful expression and pride as a statement of acceptance in defiance of stigma. Like, when I hear a statement like “I am black and I’m proud”, I don’t hear “I am glad that I’m not white” or “Black is better than white.” Instead, I hear “I’m not ashamed of being black.” A statement like this only makes sense if there is a prevailing notion or belief that being in a certain group is shameful or especially burdensome. So I wouldn’t expect to hear “I’m white and I’m proud” in polite company. This is also the purpose of “black lives matter” and why “all lives matter” and “blue lives matter” at best are missing the point and at worst another deliberate denigration of the value of black lives. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/45 "2017-04-26T16:49:49Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I find the idea of ethnic pride – being proud of nothing but the blood which you had nothing to do with – very strange. But a fondness, appreciation, and celebration of food, music, language, art, culture, etc.? I’m not sure if that’s the same thing, and I don’t see any negatives to such positive celebrations of culture. I think that nails down your point as being too vague. It seems after iteration you want to define ‘ethnic pride’ as ‘proud of nothing but the blood’ but I doubt that would be clear to most people as the only definition. I also don’t see what would be positive about ‘being proud of nothing but the blood’ (even as a gross positive offset to a net negative by other factors) just because your group is defined as ‘oppressed’ (according to whom?), or ‘minority’ (where a minority?). ETA in view of other recent posts, the experiences of minorities in various societies, comprehensively historically, are never totally the same or totally different. But in US society the example of descendants of the freed people (not necessarily even recent African or Afro-Caribbean immigrants) mainly stands alone. I think caution is always in order using it as ‘one example’. ---
**Author:** ![Common\_Tater](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/common_tater/32/13846_2.png) [@Common\_Tater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Common_Tater)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/46 "2017-04-26T18:33:10Z")
I think the trend in recent decades is to portray in popular culture any ethnic “organization” amongst whites as inherently racist, while at the same time allowing for other ethnic groups to look out for their interests without comment. So a congressional black caucus for example, is OK, but if a congressional white caucus would be cause for SPLC fundraising letters to be blasted out far and wide. It is apparently impossible to advance the causes of historically oppressed groups without a robust “hate whitey” component. Very sad and does not bode well for race relations. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/47 "2017-04-26T18:48:49Z")
> [@Common\_Tater](#): > > I think the trend in recent decades is to portray in popular culture any ethnic “organization” amongst whites as inherently racist, while at the same time allowing for other ethnic groups to look out for their interests without comment. So a congressional black caucus for example, is OK, but if a congressional white caucus would be cause for SPLC fundraising letters to be blasted out far and wide. It is apparently impossible to advance the causes of historically oppressed groups without a robust “hate whitey” component. Very sad and does not bode well for race relations. A Congressional white caucus has historically equaled Congress. That’s the reason that minority caucuses needed to form. This is exactly the same as why a “black lives matter” came into being. There’s an old joke that goes, “Why do we have a Mother’s Day and a Father’s Day? Why isn’t there a Children’s Day?” “Because every day is Children’s Day.” Now apply that to the whole of American culture from its founding. ---
**Author:** ![Hugh\_Mongoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8dc957/32.png) [@Hugh\_Mongoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hugh_Mongoose)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/48 "2017-04-26T18:51:21Z")
In a discussion of the recent celebrations of Dyngus Day, a Latino friend commented that he appreciated white people searching for something to celebrate in their heritage apart from supremacy - in this case, Polish culture. This was all nested within a larger conversation regarding distaste for alcoholidays (the Dyngus Day celebrations end up a lot like St. Patrick’s Day, just with more pierogie and polka), but I liked the sentiment. I’m proud of my Scottish heritage for the cultural aspects - caber tossing, kilts, haggis and all - but not of my whiteness in general. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/49 "2017-04-26T18:55:27Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Are those unique in any way to Hispanics? Are these things openly opposed by Hispanic groups, or are these problems just not mentioned at all when it comes to Hispanic Pride? No, but genocide isn’t unique to Germans, and many Germans oppose the Holocaust. So if Germans can feel good about German beer, German technology, German prowess in sports, but disassociate from the bad things associated with Germany… ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/50 "2017-04-26T19:13:21Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > It’s been my experience that those who exhibit the most pride in their ethnic group’s accomplishments are also typically the ones who have contributed the least towards its relative success. People who have what to be proud of in their own accomplishments don’t need to be proud of their vicarious group membership ones. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/51 "2017-04-26T19:18:25Z")
The whole concept of being proud of your heritage is absurd. What, you’re proud that the vagina you were yanked out of belonged to a Scottish woman? Hell, lots of people have been yanked out of the vagina of Scottish women, and you don’t hear them going on about it. For Scottish, substitute whatever ethnic group you think makes you so special. There is no accomplishment there, how can it be a source of pride? You can be proud of things you’ve done, but a sense of accomplishment can’t be inherited. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/52 "2017-04-26T19:47:05Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > No, but genocide isn’t unique to Germans, and many Germans oppose the Holocaust. > > So if Germans can feel good about German beer, German technology, German prowess in sports, but disassociate from the bad things associated with Germany… There is a difference between trying to correct the past and improve upon it, and just ignoring it. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/53 "2017-04-26T19:54:24Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’ve not met any of the Jewish faith that said that being the “Chosen People” made them superior to others. Talk to some Israeli hard-right wingers. [The same bastards](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Israel) are found in every ethno-national group. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/54 "2017-04-26T20:12:25Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Spinoff from this thread: > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=823857&page=5](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=823857&page=5) > > **SlackerInc** expressed pride in his Northern European heritage. I challenged and criticized such ethnic pride (cut and paste from my post in the thread): > > I think such pride can increase the likelihood of these horrific ends – ethnic pride, in fact, is one of the necessary ingredients for certain types of atrocities. You might be smart enough to not buy into such rhetoric, if it sprang up in your community… but what about all the others you celebrated and encouraged ethnic pride with? They might be more susceptible than you. Are you really not worried at all if your dumb-ass neighbor expresses ethnic pride? You don’t think that has any chance of increasing the likelihood that he does something terrible? Is there anything to balance the scales on the “good side” that requires ethnic pride? I can’t think of anything. It seems almost wholly negative, especially when it’s a majority and unoppressed group. > > He wisely noted that this wasn’t the subject of the thread, and therefore I’ve started a new one. > > After some thought, I came up with a possible positive for ethnic pride, but only for oppressed minority populations – ethnic pride might offer some sense of cohesion, community, protection, and optimism among populations with little chance to acquire these qualities otherwise. But I can’t think of any positives for non-opppressed majority groups, like Northern Europeans. And when the negatives – a much greater likelihood of ethnic pogroms, ethnic cleansing, genocide, race-based slavery, and the like – are taken into account, it seems clear to me that ethnic pride is an overwhelmingly negative characteristic to have and to encourage in others. Your position sounds like a race based double standard. I don’t see how that leads to any good. Moral justness? What are your basic moral axioms? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/55 "2017-04-26T20:16:16Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I see ethnic pride as something akin to flatulence. I think it is normal to feel pride in one’s culture or subculture, just as a it is normal to produce flatulence. But just like flatuence, it is best kept to oneself, if you don’t want to irritate or offend. Heh, that’s pretty good. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/56 "2017-04-26T20:29:03Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I see ethnic pride as something akin to flatulence. I think it is normal to feel pride in one’s culture or subculture, just as a it is normal to produce flatulence. But just like flatuence, it is best kept to oneself, if you don’t want to irritate or offend. > > I think we need to define “ethnic pride”, though, so we can make sure we’re all in agreement about what we’re talking about. Like, I don’t think feeling pride in one’s blond hair and blue eyes is “ethnic pride”, since multiple ethnicties that are only tenuously connected to each other exhibit these traits. But feeling pride in, say, bagpipes or haggis would count. > > I also think there’s a difference between pride as a boastful expression and pride as a statement of acceptance in defiance of stigma. Like, when I hear a statement like “I am black and I’m proud”, I don’t hear “I am glad that I’m not white” or “Black is better than white.” Instead, I hear “I’m not ashamed of being black.” A statement like this only makes sense if there is a prevailing notion or belief that being in a certain group is shameful or especially burdensome. So I wouldn’t expect to hear “I’m white and I’m proud” in polite company. > > If someone told me they feel pride in their pale skin and light-colored eyes and hair, I would probably ask them why they’re telling me this and what would they like for me to say in responsse. I don’t think any feeling is right or wrong, but not every feeling needs to be expressed. If people mean that being black is acceptable and not shameworthy, why wouldn’t they say, “I accept being Black” or “I am okay with being Black”? There are lots of ways to express a similar sentiment without using proud which means something else. When I hear “I am black and I’m proud”, I hear them saying that they are proud to be black. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/57 "2017-04-26T21:07:06Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > If people mean that being black is acceptable and not shameworthy, why wouldn’t they say, “I accept being Black” or “I am okay with being Black”? There are lots of ways to express a similar sentiment without using proud which means something else. When I hear “I am black and I’m proud”, I hear them saying that they are proud to be black. They’re not saying that they’re proud they managed to be randomly born to black parents. They’re saying that they are proud that they have been able to handle everything that comes with being a disadvantaged minority, and yet still thrive. Same with gay people and Pride: it’s not about being proud they managed to get tab A inserted into slot A - anyone can do that - it’s pride in continuing to thrive despite admitting to being a minority that is treated with scorn and hatred. “White pride” doesn’t have that: there’s no pride to be had in overcoming all those advantages that come with being born to the dominant majority. ---
**Author:** ![Weisshund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba8739/32.png) [@Weisshund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weisshund)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/58 "2017-04-26T22:47:28Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > One good aspect is that it can encourage good behavior and hard work. For example Jewish people are probably the most successful ethnic group in the world. One part of their culture is the sense of superiority, that they are the “chosen people.” Because of this there is a taboo against acting in a way that would dishonor the group in the eyes of the gentiles. This would be known as being a shonda fur die goyim. This internalized fear of shame prevents bad behavior and encourages good behavior. I am sure you did not mean this to be bad, but it came out that way There is no superiority about it. Chosen does not mean “We are better” it means “We get more rules and less leniency if we mess up” And the subject of this choseness worked like this. “I chose you, and you will accept or you are standing in your own graves and i will bury you with this mountain where you stand” And it has nothing to do with the eyes of the goyim, it’s the eyes of God. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/59 "2017-04-26T23:02:40Z")
After a series of clarifications by the OP, I conclude that I am supposed to feel some degree of shame for being white and living in the US. He can feel however he wishes. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/60 "2017-04-26T23:05:29Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > If people mean that being black is acceptable and not shameworthy, why wouldn’t they say, “I accept being Black” or “I am okay with being Black”? Can you really imagine James Brown singing “I accept being black”? That sounds like a horrible song. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274.md?page=4)