# Pros and cons of ethnic pride **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 26, 2017, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274 "2017-04-26T11:50:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/61 "2017-04-26T23:33:00Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > After a series of clarifications by the OP, I conclude that I am supposed to feel some degree of shame for being white and living in the US. He can feel however he wishes. I feel no shame for being white in the US, and I don’t think anyone else should either. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/62 "2017-04-27T00:01:04Z")
> [@Bill\_Door](#): > > The whole concept of being proud of your heritage is absurd. What, you’re proud that the vagina you were yanked out of belonged to a Scottish woman? Hell, lots of people have been yanked out of the vagina of Scottish women, and you don’t hear them going on about it. For Scottish, substitute whatever ethnic group you think makes you so special. There is no accomplishment there, how can it be a source of pride? You can be proud of things you’ve done, but a sense of accomplishment can’t be inherited. There is pride which is not about feeling accomplished. I am proud of my family members though their accomplishments are not my own. I don’t feel that being related to them makes me great. But I am proud of them all the same. I am proud of my city. I have not created any of the conditions I like so much about my city. I don’t think living here increases my personal worth. But I do think it’s a great city and I am proud to be a part of it. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/63 "2017-04-27T00:06:51Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > There is pride which is not about feeling accomplished. > > I am proud of my family members though their accomplishments are not my own. > I don’t feel that being related to them makes me great. > But I am proud of them all the same. > > I am proud of my city. I have not created any of the conditions I like so much about my city. > I don’t think living here increases my personal worth. > But I do think it’s a great city and I am proud to be a part of it. Nice. I mean, really, _everything_ is pointless from one POV. The sun will eventually incinerate our planet, and even if our descendants have colonized other star systems, they will eventually succumb to the heat death of the universe. But we can still have pride in our cities and our sports teams and our families, while we are still on this muddy rock spinning around this star. ---
**Author:** ![greenmario](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/97f17d/32.png) [@greenmario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greenmario)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/64 "2017-04-27T00:13:29Z")
Internalizing the accomplishments, good or bad, of people tangentially related to you is probably not rational. However, its something that we all do as humans at some level. I find myself using the royal “we” when discussing sports teams often. I doubt its an instinct I’ll get over anytime soon. So as long as its trying to lift up a group as opposed to putting down another I don’t have too much problem with it. Also, is there a difference between patriotism and ethnic pride? If I follow Andy’s reasoning, only the minority members of a nation should be allowed outward displays of pride. Assuming the majority is of said nation, then the only displays will be from outside nations, which seems backwards to me. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/65 "2017-04-27T02:25:36Z")
Frankly, I’m not sure now what the OP is looking for. It is some kind of mishmash of who is allowed to be proud and who isn’t. The citeria are rather murky. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/66 "2017-04-27T02:28:52Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I feel no shame for being white in the US, and I don’t think anyone else should either. Iirc, you are Jewish. Not exactly the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/67 "2017-04-27T02:58:59Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Iirc, you are Jewish. Not exactly the same thing. Half Jew, about 45% British Isles, about 4% West African, and a dash of native American. But I’ve only been treated as white in my life. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/68 "2017-04-27T03:00:00Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Frankly, I’m not sure now what the OP is looking for. It is some kind of mishmash of who is allowed to be proud and who isn’t. The citeria are rather murky. I’m looking for discussion. I haven’t made any criteria at all about who is “allowed” to be proud. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/69 "2017-04-27T03:44:58Z")
> [@Weisshund](#): > > I am sure you did not mean this to be bad, but it came out that way > > There is no superiority about it. > > Chosen does not mean “We are better” it means “We get more rules and less leniency if we mess up” And the subject of this choseness worked like this. > “I chose you, and you will accept or you are standing in your own graves and i will bury you with this mountain where you stand” > > And it has nothing to do with the eyes of the goyim, it’s the eyes of God. Well, it would be pretty radical if the people who made up the religion in the first place chose a different ethnic group to be the “special” ones, wouldn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/70 "2017-04-27T14:33:24Z")
I’ll just throw it out there: isn’t pride one of the “deadly” sins. Pride inevitably leads to comparisons, one-upmanship and feelings of superiority. This always leads to conflict. What’s wrong with saying I’m happy to be … or I’m content with being… ? It’s much less contentious. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/71 "2017-04-27T15:35:12Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > I’ll just throw it out there: isn’t pride one of the “deadly” sins. > Pride inevitably leads to comparisons, one-upmanship and feelings of superiority. This always leads to conflict. > > What’s wrong with saying I’m happy to be … or I’m content with being… ? > It’s much less contentious. I agree with that. From a relatively traditionalist POV, I’m wary of the word ‘pride’ generally even if related to something I’ve done myself. And when I might apply it to others, pride in my kids for example, the meaning is different, more like love and admiration of _them_, not myself. Which might carry over to a group identity, one might love/admire one’s ‘tribe’. And again let’s have some shred of consistency here. If this is acceptable for Jewish identity say (where the term ‘tribe’ is often actually if jocularly used IME), it’s just hypocritical to say it’s morally different for Irish (happens to be mine) identity. Where/when I grew up most people were Irish, Jewish or Italian, along with a few WASP’s and blacks. Each had some group identity. And the idea one or another of that Big Three was more ‘oppressed’ was not very relevant in that local time/place, though partisans of each group might argue that in some bigger longer term context. I personally never was and am not very into that kind of stuff, especially any connection back to Ireland where I don’t know anyone, even my grandparents didn’t. I have a realization that a (Brooklyn) Irish background for several generations makes me a little different than ‘mainstream’ US ‘whites’ with more mixed backgrounds, besides non ‘white’ groups. A bit different experience: a fact. Pride? again I’m wary of that word, but if others mean by it just positive kinds of feelings, OK. Again I’d leave open a small handful of special cases, specifically descendants in the US of victims of racial slavery in the US, and Natives, where group identity might legitimately be viewed differently, _within limits_ of where it doesn’t become socially counterproductive, though with African American identity politics it has in some cases. But if ‘Scottish pride’ (in the US) is inherently absurd so is Hispanic, Korean, etc. equally so. It’s basically backward looking and destructive IMO to try to maintain an idea of ‘white’ v ‘non white’ in general as the central social fact of American life when that wasn’t even always the case in the past, and moreover it’s increasingly at odds with reality as it relates to groups comprised in large part of immigrants who came voluntarily to the US, some responsibility on their part to know what they were getting into if US racial dynamics are really so terrible, which IME in now multi-racial very diverse same area which was less so when I grew up…isn’t that true in everyday life. The generalized racial obsession is often driven IMO by self interested politics, which is cynical and actually immoral. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/72 "2017-04-27T18:10:27Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Can you really imagine James Brown singing “I accept being black”? That sounds like a horrible song. The guy who wrote Sex Machine was creative enough to express the sentiment in a non-horrible way if he chose. I think he wrote that he was proud to be black because he was proud to be black. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/73 "2017-04-27T18:15:44Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > I’ll just throw it out there: isn’t pride one of the “deadly” sins. > Pride inevitably leads to comparisons, one-upmanship and feelings of superiority. This always leads to conflict. > > What’s wrong with saying I’m happy to be … or I’m content with being… ? > It’s much less contentious. Pride is a deadly sin because it is deadly to the person committing it. I don’t see that it inevitably leads to conflict. Texans seem proud to be Texans but they don’t go beating up Oklahomans willy nilly. Likewise there are loads of national pride displays at the Olympics but they do not lead to rumbles. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/74 "2017-04-27T18:19:47Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > And when I might apply it to others, pride in my kids for example, the meaning is different, more like love and admiration of _them_, not myself. > > Which might carry over to a group identity, one might love/admire one’s ‘tribe’. Yes, I like this framing. Good call. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/75 "2017-04-27T18:26:59Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > The guy who wrote Sex Machine was creative enough to express the sentiment in a non-horrible way if he chose. I think he wrote that he was proud to be black because he was proud to be black. I think he did to. I also think he wrote it as a counter to the notion that there was something wrong with being black, exactly as **monstro** said. Not only is there nothing wrong with using pride in that context, it is an important sentiment that needed/needs to be expressed. I don’t feel any pride to be white, because I really don’t have any need to nor is it something I identify with. As the default condition in our society, it has no particular resonance with me. I’m also not proud to be half-Serbian either, because, eh, whatever. Let alone the Welsh, English, German and whatever the fuck else is mixed in there. None of it is part of my personal identity in any meaningful way. I do feel _lucky_ to be white, though. It’s definitely helpful to be part of the invisible majority. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/76 "2017-04-27T19:06:43Z")
Being “proud” of one’s race or ethnicity makes exactly as much sense as being proud of having two arms – “hey, most animals have no arms but I got two and I’m real proud of that!” You’re _ **proud** _ of it? What exactly was your contribution to this anatomical configuration? I’m pretty sure that this kind of “pride” came about as a defense by minorities of various sorts who were perceived as being different in some way that made them less socially accepted or regarded as inferior. Emotionally, it’s a strong declaration that this trait, whatever it may be, is actually a positive attribute and you’re happy to have it. Logically, though, it makes absolutely no sense. Pride should be associated with achievement. At best and at its most innocent, it’s a typical sloppy use of language where it doesn’t really mean “pride” but means something like “a celebration of the good things about x”. But more problematically, it’s often used to promote racial or ethnic discrimination and to emphasize supposed differences that are superficial or non-existent. I don’t think things like national pride or cultural pride are the same, because these are things that an individual is an active participant in. I’m not “proud” in any particular way of my race or ethnicity or the accident of where I was born, but I do take pride in living in and helping to further a progressive democracy. Pros of ethnic pride: None, except for being an emotionally supportive statement for a historically disadvantaged group. Cons: Meaningless and potentially promotes discrimination and social divisiveness. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/77 "2017-04-27T20:11:19Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Logically, though, it makes absolutely no sense. No feelings make sense. Honestly, I think the English language doesn’t offer the best words for describing complex feelings. When I think about black Americans who have made a major footprint on society, do I feel a sense of pride–the same feeling I have when reflecting on my own good work? Or do I actually feel a combination of secondary emotions, like inspiration (“I want to be as great as they are”) and vindication (“People say we’re stupid, but see? They are clearly wrong”). In other words, I’m wondering if this debate would even exist if we had better vocabulary. If we really want to be Mr. Spock-like, we need to acknowledge that feeling proud of anything is nonsensical, even for personal achievements. Like, it doesn’t make sense to be proud of making a perfect score on the SAT, since such an achievement is almost certainly the result of innate talent and privilege–two things outside of a person’s control. But I don’t think anyone would fault someone for taking pride in a perfect SAT score. Moreover, I don’t see the point in faulting someone for taking pride in this. Pride is just a feeling. Judging actions is fine, but let people feel however they want to feel. Meanwhile, I’m going to continue to feel “proud” when I read stories about Harriet Tubman and other black American heroes. And I’m not going to pretend that I feel the exact same way when I read about other folks–who may be just admirable and noteworthy. I have a special affection for my culture and the folks produced by that culture. Big whoop. People who have a problem with this need to get a life, IMHO. I’m curious how the crowd here feels about this: If feeling pride in one’s ethnic group is wrong, what about feeling a sense of guilt or responsibility? For instance, as “illogical” as it is, I can’t help but to feel a twinge of embarrassment when black people are on the news doing bad things. I don’t know a black person who has never felt like this. I’m suddenly flashing on the time when I was a kid and my teacher pulled all of us black kids out into the hallway to yell at us for embarrassing her and the rest of the “race” (even though my memory has us acting no worse than the white kids in the class, but whatever). Now, we can debate all day long about whether this teacher should have done this. But I’m guessing the conservative types here would probably appreciate that approach, given how the conservatives supported Bill Cosby for taking black people to task. Seems to me you can’t have collective shaming and simultaneously condemn collective pride. ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2017, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/78 "2017-04-28T01:58:39Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > There’s an old joke that goes, “Why do we have a Mother’s Day and a Father’s Day? Why isn’t there a Children’s Day?” “Because every day is Children’s Day.” > > Now apply that to the whole of American culture from its founding. This works with Labor Day, too, imo. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2017, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/79 "2017-04-28T15:04:19Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > I think he did to. I also think he wrote it as a counter to the notion that there was something wrong with being black, exactly as **monstro** said. Not only is there nothing wrong with using pride in that context, it is an important sentiment that needed/needs to be expressed. > > I don’t feel any pride to be white, because I really don’t have any need to nor is it something I identify with. As the default condition in our society, it has no particular resonance with me. I’m also not proud to be half-Serbian either, because, eh, whatever. Let alone the Welsh, English, German and whatever the fuck else is mixed in there. None of it is part of my personal identity in any meaningful way. > > I do feel _lucky_ to be white, though. It’s definitely helpful to be part of the invisible majority. There are [plenty](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZFY0dqC0Ks)of people who think that being white is wrong and shameful. Does that mean it is okay to feel proud to be white in front of them.? ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2017, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/80 "2017-04-28T15:11:42Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > No feelings make sense. > > Honestly, I think the English language doesn’t offer the best words for describing complex feelings. When I think about black Americans who have made a major footprint on society, do I feel a sense of pride–the same feeling I have when reflecting on my own good work? Or do I actually feel a combination of secondary emotions, like inspiration (“I want to be as great as they are”) and vindication (“People say we’re stupid, but see? They are clearly wrong”). In other words, I’m wondering if this debate would even exist if we had better vocabulary. > > If we really want to be Mr. Spock-like, we need to acknowledge that feeling proud of anything is nonsensical, even for personal achievements. Like, it doesn’t make sense to be proud of making a perfect score on the SAT, since such an achievement is almost certainly the result of innate talent and privilege–two things outside of a person’s control. But I don’t think anyone would fault someone for taking pride in a perfect SAT score. Moreover, I don’t see the point in faulting someone for taking pride in this. Pride is just a feeling. Judging actions is fine, but let people feel however they want to feel. > > Meanwhile, I’m going to continue to feel “proud” when I read stories about Harriet Tubman and other black American heroes. And I’m not going to pretend that I feel the exact same way when I read about other folks–who may be just admirable and noteworthy. I have a special affection for my culture and the folks produced by that culture. Big whoop. People who have a problem with this need to get a life, IMHO. > > I’m curious how the crowd here feels about this: If feeling pride in one’s ethnic group is wrong, what about feeling a sense of guilt or responsibility? For instance, as “illogical” as it is, I can’t help but to feel a twinge of embarrassment when black people are on the news doing bad things. I don’t know a black person who has never felt like this. I’m suddenly flashing on the time when I was a kid and my teacher pulled all of us black kids out into the hallway to yell at us for embarrassing her and the rest of the “race” (even though my memory has us acting no worse than the white kids in the class, but whatever). Now, we can debate all day long about whether this teacher should have done this. But I’m guessing the conservative types here would probably appreciate that approach, given how the conservatives supported Bill Cosby for taking black people to task. Seems to me you can’t have collective shaming and simultaneously condemn collective pride. It makes people feel good to feel proud of their group, it makes the Olympics more fun, and it can motivate people to act better in order to represent their group better. All those are good things. There is a possibility that it can be taken to far and result in disparagement of other groups but that is what should be condemned and not the pride. Any emotion including love for one’s family can be taken to far and result in awful things but that is no reason to reject them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274.md?page=5)