# Pros and cons of ethnic pride **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 26, 2017, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274 "2017-04-26T11:50:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![HumbleThinker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@HumbleThinker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HumbleThinker)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2017, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/81 "2017-04-29T03:27:01Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Spinoff from this thread: > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=823857&page=5](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=823857&page=5) > > **SlackerInc** expressed pride in his Northern European heritage. I challenged and criticized such ethnic pride (cut and paste from my post in the thread): > > I think such pride can increase the likelihood of these horrific ends – ethnic pride, in fact, is one of the necessary ingredients for certain types of atrocities. You might be smart enough to not buy into such rhetoric, if it sprang up in your community… but what about all the others you celebrated and encouraged ethnic pride with? They might be more susceptible than you. Are you really not worried at all if your dumb-ass neighbor expresses ethnic pride? You don’t think that has any chance of increasing the likelihood that he does something terrible? Is there anything to balance the scales on the “good side” that requires ethnic pride? I can’t think of anything. It seems almost wholly negative, especially when it’s a majority and unoppressed group. > > He wisely noted that this wasn’t the subject of the thread, and therefore I’ve started a new one. > > After some thought, I came up with a possible positive for ethnic pride, but only for oppressed minority populations – ethnic pride might offer some sense of cohesion, community, protection, and optimism among populations with little chance to acquire these qualities otherwise. But I can’t think of any positives for non-opppressed majority groups, like Northern Europeans. And when the negatives – a much greater likelihood of ethnic pogroms, ethnic cleansing, genocide, race-based slavery, and the like – are taken into account, it seems clear to me that ethnic pride is an overwhelmingly negative characteristic to have and to encourage in others. I’ve just never found it to be particularly rational from an objective standpoint. Why should I feel a sense of accomplishment when I didn’t do anything just because someone who may or may not be distally related to me did something awesome? Conversely, why should I feel ashamed when I didn’t do anything just because someone who may or may not be distally related to me did something terrible? Subjectively, however, it definitely has its utility. It can galvanize an oppressed people to action, overt expressions of it can prevent an oppressed people from being forgotten, it can contribute to unity, etc. But, like you said, it can, like any other tool, be used for evil ends. And like other tools, unless you provide something to fill in for the positives that tool can achieve, then there’s no effective argument to be made for discouraging it. Scientific knowledge has been used as a tool for some of the greatest good and greatest evil in our species’ history. And there simply isn’t anything to replace all the good we’ve derived from science that would justify discouraging it because things such as countless tools of mass destruction and varying degrees of existential dread because of these tools. ---
**Author:** ![HumbleThinker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@HumbleThinker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HumbleThinker)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2017, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/82 "2017-04-29T03:30:10Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Being “proud” of one’s race or ethnicity makes exactly as much sense as being proud of having two arms – “hey, most animals have no arms but I got two and I’m real proud of that!” You’re _ **proud** _ of it? What exactly was your contribution to this anatomical configuration? > > I’m pretty sure that this kind of “pride” came about as a defense by minorities of various sorts who were perceived as being different in some way that made them less socially accepted or regarded as inferior. Emotionally, it’s a strong declaration that this trait, whatever it may be, is actually a positive attribute and you’re happy to have it. Logically, though, it makes absolutely no sense. Pride should be associated with achievement. At best and at its most innocent, it’s a typical sloppy use of language where it doesn’t really mean “pride” but means something like “a celebration of the good things about x”. But more problematically, it’s often used to promote racial or ethnic discrimination and to emphasize supposed differences that are superficial or non-existent. > > I don’t think things like national pride or cultural pride are the same, because these are things that an individual is an active participant in. I’m not “proud” in any particular way of my race or ethnicity or the accident of where I was born, but I do take pride in living in and helping to further a progressive democracy. > > Pros of ethnic pride: None, except for being an emotionally supportive statement for a historically disadvantaged group. > > Cons: Meaningless and potentially promotes discrimination and social divisiveness. You know advantaged majorities have and do express ethnic pride as well, right? Your post makes it seem like you think otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2017, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/83 "2017-04-29T14:41:49Z")
Quick story, Years ago when they were first introducing black history month in the high schools, they had this idea at Turner High School in Kansas City Kansas to have a black pride event in the auditorium but the thing was, only black students would attend. Well this upset the white kids and some of the black kids started chanting “Black Power” so the white kids retaliated with “White Power” and the school had a race riot. Thing is it was the stupid adults in charge who had this wonderful idea of letting only the black students out of class. Otherwise the students actually were getting along pretty well. I have also seen instances where in black history events they invite in a speaker whom they hadn’t properly checked out and the person starts on an anti-white message. Some white teachers and students have even boycotted or walked out of such events. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2017, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/84 "2017-04-29T14:45:20Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > I think he did to. I also think he wrote it as a counter to the notion that there was something wrong with being black, exactly as **monstro** said. Not only is there nothing wrong with using pride in that context, it is an important sentiment that needed/needs to be expressed. > > I don’t feel any pride to be white, because I really don’t have any need to nor is it something I identify with. As the default condition in our society, it has no particular resonance with me. I’m also not proud to be half-Serbian either, because, eh, whatever. Let alone the Welsh, English, German and whatever the fuck else is mixed in there. None of it is part of my personal identity in any meaningful way. > > I do feel _lucky_ to be white, though. It’s definitely helpful to be part of the invisible majority. I know a man who when asked to fill out a form, refused to select the label “White”. He pointed out that it didnt match his Scottish heritage or background so after going round and round, they accepted him as a"Celtic-American". ---
**Author:** ![Licentious\_Ectomorph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/5e9695/32.png) [@Licentious\_Ectomorph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Licentious_Ectomorph)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2017, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/85 "2017-04-29T19:55:28Z")
My take on it, FWIW, is that the “pride” professed by oppressed minorities is more accurately described as “refusal to be ashamed.” That’s a good thing. Most non-whites/non-Christians have been told for centuries that they’re inferior, and their response, appropriately, is “Screw you - I have nothing to be ashamed of because of my appearance or culture.” This translates, for the sake of convenience, to the more succinct “pride.” Semantics, ultimately. ---
**Author:** ![MrLee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f8ce5/32.png) [@MrLee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrLee)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2017, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/86 "2017-04-29T21:06:29Z")
I am discomforted by the idea of people taking personal ‘pride’ (as in, expecting some sort of credit, recognition or kudos) for achievements made by others with whom they happen to share some kind of common ethnic ancestry; the implication is ‘ from [y] ethnicity/race did [z] wonderful thing. I am also of [y] ethnicity/race, therefore I must also have some of that same wonderfulness’. This is a dangerous, lazy and illogical mindset. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2017, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/87 "2017-04-29T21:10:17Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I suppose that it all depends on your definition of “broadly”, but white nationalist views are not exactly rare in western society. Baloney. They’re very rare. So rare that it’s plain silly to worry that, say, taking part in a St Patrick’s Day parade has dangerous ramifications. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2017, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/88 "2017-04-29T21:20:37Z")
> [@MrLee](#): > > I am discomforted by the idea of people taking personal ‘pride’ (as in, expecting some sort of credit, recognition or kudos) for achievements made by others with whom they happen to share some kind of common ethnic ancestry; the implication is ‘ from [y] ethnicity/race did [z] wonderful thing. I am also of [y] ethnicity/race, therefore I must also have some of that same wonderfulness’. This is a dangerous, lazy and illogical mindset. Have you ever heard someone say these words out loud? ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2017, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/89 "2017-04-29T23:50:12Z")
If you’re telling me women of Muslim heritage can feel pride in the hijab, a symbol of historic oppression against them, but I can’t feel pride for western secularism in which women do not suffer such oppression, you need to recalibrate everything upon which your morals reside. This is the end result of identity politics completely subsuming the Left: sheer irrationalism and amorality. ---
**Author:** ![GulfTiger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e79b87/32.png) [@GulfTiger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GulfTiger)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2017, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/90 "2017-04-30T16:12:08Z")
I don’t see anything wrong with some limited form of racial or ethnic pride. But one must be very careful lest one cross the line and slip from mere pride into the world of supremacists thinking. At that point you would be into the wrong. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2017, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/91 "2017-04-30T17:09:20Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > If you’re telling me women of Muslim heritage can feel pride in the hijab, a symbol of historic oppression against them, but I can’t feel pride for western secularism in which women do not suffer such oppression, you need to recalibrate everything upon which your morals reside. > > This is the end result of identity politics completely subsuming the Left: sheer irrationalism and amorality. I stand with you against this mighty man of straw. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2017, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/92 "2017-04-30T17:43:45Z")
One thing is certain: whatever problems are holding back African Americans, low self-esteem and insufficient pride are NOT among them. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2017, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/93 "2017-04-30T18:21:44Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > One thing is certain: whatever problems are holding back African Americans, low self-esteem and insufficient pride are NOT among them. Cite? I’ve met more than a few black people who I suspect–based on the things they say–harbor varying degrees of self-loathing, insecurity, and low expectations for themselves and others like them. I’m curious what experiences you’ve had that would make you think black people are healthier in this regard than other groups. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2017, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/94 "2017-04-30T19:29:56Z")
Personally, I think the real value of ethnic pride is more in the preservations of said ethnic heritage. If people are excited and proud of being part of a particular group, and it leads them to research, engage in and preserve that ethnic heritage, then more power to them, regardless of whether they’re oppressed or oppressor. Everyone wants to be part of something larger than themselves, and often their ethnicity is a convenient way for that to happen- it’s a way to build and foster community AND diversity. Wouldn’t we be better off as Americans if people celebrated their Cornish-ness, Welsh-ness, Provencal-ness, Bavarian-ism, Franconia-ism, etc… rather than generic German/English/Welsh-ness? However, where it breaks down is when it’s used as a sort of way to make themselves feel superior, belittle others, or disregard whatever terrible things their particular ethnic group has done in the past, or continues to do in the present. I mean it’s fine for someone of German descent to take pride in their German-ness and dress in lederhosen, drink beer, do traditional dances, etc… but it’s something altogether different if that leads them to whitewash things Germans have done in the past. I also think it’s detrimental if this ethnic pride causes a sort of withdrawal, or “us vs. them” mentality among non-dominant groups. That also leads nowhere good. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/95 "2017-05-02T11:45:05Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Cite? > > I’ve met more than a few black people who I suspect–based on the things they say–harbor varying degrees of self-loathing, insecurity, and low expectations for themselves and others like them. I’m curious what experiences you’ve had that would make you think black people are healthier in this regard than other groups. What kind of cite would satisfy you? I can only tell you that, in my experience, African Americans exhibit a level of confidence and self-esteem unmatched by any other American ethnic group. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/96 "2017-05-02T13:26:47Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > > [@astorian](#): > > > > One thing is certain: whatever problems are holding back African Americans, low self-esteem and insufficient pride are NOT among them. > > Cite? > > I’ve met more than a few black people who I suspect–based on the things they say–harbor varying degrees of self-loathing, insecurity, and low expectations for themselves and others like them. I’m curious what experiences you’ve had that would make you think black people are healthier in this regard than other groups. > [@](#): > > Large-scale representative surveys of 8th-, 10th-, and 12th-grade students in the United States show high self-esteem scores for all groups. African-American students score highest, Whites score slightly higher than Hispanics, and Asian Americans score lowest. [Cite](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3263756/). > [@](#): > > We conclude that black self-esteem is insulated from systems of racial inequality, while personal efficacy is not, and suggest that this explains why black Americans have relatively high self-esteem but low personal efficacy. The belief that racial discrimination, rather than individual failure, accounts for low achievement among blacks is irrelevant to personal self-esteem and personal efficacy. In contrast, racial self-esteem is produced by a combination of education, interracial contact, and ideological processes. [Cite](https://www.jstor.org/stable/2780408?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents). Low self-esteem isn’t the problem among blacks. The problem is that the large majority of black children are born out of wedlock and raised without the long-term presence of a father figure. Being raised without a father correlates with practically every social pathology known to science. (You don’t need a cite for either of these statements.) Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/97 "2017-05-02T14:45:01Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The problem is that the large majority of black children are born out of wedlock and raised without the long-term presence of a father figure. Being raised without a father correlates with practically every social pathology known to science. (You don’t need a cite for either of these statements.) > > Regards, > Shodan This could very well be a significant problem without changing the likelihood that racism in society is also a significant problem. If black children of wealthy and educated married parents still have a decreased likelihood of various successful outcomes than other children, one possible explanation is that society holds them back in various ways (i.e. societal racism). This was certainly true for most of American history, and I think it’s reasonable to consider that it might be true to some degree today. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/98 "2017-05-04T02:25:52Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This could very well be a significant problem without changing the likelihood that racism in society is also a significant problem. If black children of wealthy and educated married parents still have a decreased likelihood of various successful outcomes than other children, one possible explanation is that society holds them back in various ways (i.e. societal racism). > > This was certainly true for most of American history, and I think it’s reasonable to consider that it might be true to some degree today. Sure, but I think that jumping to the conclusion that it HAS to be racism is also premature. It could very easily be issues of low expectations from peers and their immediate community or it could be pressure from peers to act a certain way, disdain certain things, and be enthusiastic about others. It could be the hoary old “crabs in a pot” trope even. You’d have to control for that kind of thing WITHIN the black community before you can really definitively attribute it to external white racism. You’d have to do things like track the success of black children raised by successful, wealthy white families, or of children of black families living in overwhelmingly white communities, etc… Now I’m not saying it doesn’t exist, but that I tend to think that the bigger “drag” on black children probably comes from within their communities rather than from without these days. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/99 "2017-05-04T02:34:20Z")
But then you have to ask whether the “drag from within” ultimately traces back to factors from without. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2017, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274/100 "2017-05-04T10:58:54Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Spinoff from this thread: > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=823857&page=5](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=823857&page=5) > > **SlackerInc** expressed pride in his Northern European heritage. I challenged and criticized such ethnic pride (cut and paste from my post in the thread): Ah yes, I remember the cartoon. Someone says, “I’m proud of being black” to agreement, someone says, “I’m proud of being Native American” to agreement, and so on round to the white man who says, “I’m proud of being white” whereupon everyone points and condemns him as a racist. I prefer the one which goes “Race, Religion, Ethnic pride, Nationalism, etc do nothing but teach you how to hate people you’ve never met.” [![](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CO6PvMGWcAIvOPV.jpg) ](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CO6PvMGWcAIvOPV.jpg) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pros-and-cons-of-ethnic-pride/785274.md?page=6)