Pros & Cons with relativism

I think we all can agree that the word “Wrong” is used for different and sometimes misleading purposes.
In everyday speak we all understand with this very description. Even though it doesnt come with any authority. It is still a very important world, perhaps not so much in philosophy.

This is where my problem with some relativist come in.

In my view, constructions such as right and wrong are concepts that could only be understood from an evolutionary background.

Concepts most humans should have ingrained. So being scholarly and not pretending the everyday meaning of such words do not help the discussion forward very much.

Arguing from a herd mentality some things in most context are “BAD” behaviours, no theoretic analysis needed.

Sometimes its very important, in most cases no. Dont make it more complicated than it is. Thats my final words

You are sympathetic to country Y’s population because country X might be doing horrible things. I look at it from the perspective that anyone should. Why is this happening. What are the reasons.

Israel and Palestine for example.

So… I don’t agree with what Israel is doing to Palestine. I think it only incites more hatred towards Israel. Still I understand how this all started. I understand why it’s happening. I empathize with all the people suffering over there. I go to rallies and hold up my ‘Judaism good, Zionism bad’ sign. I get called an antisemite when I am standing right next to my friend who is a Jew… still I don’t think Israel is doing anything ‘wrong’, but I do think they are doing what they think is ‘right.’ I’d rather say agree or disagree. The problem with right and wrong is everyone has their own interpretation. Again, that comes back to your topic of relativism.

I think you disagree with my unemotional response to the scenario. The truth is, emotional response rarely end in good outcomes. So I am trying my hardest not to give any. These are just my opinions. Take them with a grain of salt.

Universally I think we could agree that sociopathic behavior is unwanted. There is no need to discuss the ethics or morality, because it is simply counterproductive.

Fair,I do not understand though if you are debating from a point of a relativist though. From what I understand you are stating that “since things are complicated, I can not know who is right or wrong; therefore both are right”

This claim might sound right when not examined. But I would argue that this is a statement from ignorance. However complicated, there should be some side/argument that is more right than the other. Or at least some side that you support more than the other.

Just because there are two sides of an argument does not mean that there are two sides that are “half-right”.
I can not ground this in some specific school of philosophy. But I do think there is such thing as a practical “truth”, might we call this principalism or even pragmatism in some sense.
Just sitting on the fence seem non-productive and sometimes cowardly.

For what reasons should I support one side more than the other?

Politically the US supports Israel because we have a common enemy and because they buy weapons from us… you could go further and suggest that we sympathize with the Zionist movement for some reason. What we do know though is Israel us surrounded by enemies, so it is important for countries like us and Britain to act as a deterrent for any strike on Israel.

Fundamentally though, what Israel is doing to Palestine is unnecessary (for the most part). It’s Israel’s fault that there is such strong antisemitic dissent in Palestine, and it’s why Palestinians elected Hamas. Had Israel any intentions for peace there would be peace. There have been opportunities in the past, but it seemed that neither side wanted to come to an agreement. Both countries want the other gone from Palestine, it just happens that Israel has the military advantage. If it were the other way, Israel would probably have my sympathy instead.

The problem is of course Israel abusing their military might over Palestine. They occupy it, set up check points, do random searches, harass and abuse people, demolish businesses and homes, set up illegal blockades… but you have to wonder if Palestine would do the same if they had some sort of military advantage. I don’t know.

All I know is that many Israeli people and especially it’s government is motivated by their religious texts to take back their promised land and expel all outsiders. Even Christians.

All I can see from that video is that Jews like to intimidate and ridicule just like any of the other religions. To me they are no different from Christians, Muslims, etc. I don’t see right or wrong. I see people who are misguided and brainwashed. Thus, I have a hard time blaming them for their actions. Because they probably truly believe they are just in doing so. It’s poor education.

Relativism is the worst philosophy in the world.

Except for none of the others.

Yeah, not only is everything relative, but also I am absolutely sure of it.

Is that what you meant? :slight_smile:

But here we come to the fatal flaw of “objective morality”. Suppose there is such a thing as objective morality. But how do we flawed human beings discover it? Divine revelation? You might have had a revelation from a deity, but I haven’t, so why should I take your word for it? And even if I experience divine revelation, what makes that morality objectively? Because God said it was? Does God reveal objective morality, or create it? In other words, if God tells you to sacrifice your first born son on the altar, does that mean it is objectively morally right for you to sacrifice your first born son?

If there is an objective morality, it doesn’t do us humans any good, because we don’t know what that objective morality is. We have to muddle through. Oh, we have an innate moral sense, true enough. We FEEL that hurting people is wrong, and so on. But just because we feel it, that doesn’t make it objectively true. We can easily imagine a sentient species that has a different innate moral sense. So our innate moral sense might conform to the hypothesized objective morality, but if ours was different, how would we know? And if that other species is different, does that mean that species is innately evil, like Orcs in Middle Earth? Or maybe we’re the innately evil ones–you’ll certainly find Christians who would agree.

So it seems to me that an appeal to objective morality won’t work. We can’t start at the beginning, we have to start at the middle. Here we are on this planet, and if we don’t want to be miserable, we’ll have to figure out some way of getting along. And since there has been a few thousand years of recorded history of people trying to get along, we see the results of different sorts of rules. I personally like having plenty of food, comfortable clothes, a warm/cool house, running water, my shit and piss carried away, nobody trying to kill me, or rape me, or threaten me with violence. And so on.

Now, what sort of rules help create such a life? I’d rather have a society where rape is punished, even if that means I can’t rape anyone, because my urge to rape isn’t very strong, while my urge not to be raped is very strong. And I’d like my friends and family not to be raped. I don’t care as much about strangers, but I have no particular wish for them to be raped either. So “no raping” is a rule I agree with.

Is “no raping” objectively moral? I have no idea. But God telling me “no raping” wouldn’t mean to me that “no raping” is right, it would just tell me that God doesn’t like rape, and I agree with him. Maybe I’m wrong, and raping really is morally right, and I’m too innately evil to realize that rape is right. And God telling me to rape or not rape doesn’t prove either is right. Not to mention that God hasn’t told me personally anything about anything, so that’s moot to me, but perhaps God has told you some rules that you should follow. And if he has, how do you know that God is objectively right?

So I don’t know if I’m objectively right, I just know what kind of society I’d like to live in, and when I see examples of societies that work better than ours I’ll advocate that we adopt moral rules more like theirs, and when I see societies that work worse, I’ll advocate we don’t adopt their rules and also advocate that they adopt ours. Not because I’m sure I’m objectively right, but because I believe that I’m not so different from anybody else.

In this thread I will respond,. although I am not here arguing that there is an objective morality. I am simply pointing out that reletavism cannot be true, and mashing nilum’s ridiculous assertions.

I cannot agree. In fact, I must greatly disagree. Humans may not know it innately, but let’s be very blutn about it: throughout history, people have deep down always admitted morality’s claim. Even people as bad as the Mongols or the Nazis tried to claim it didn’t apply to their specific enemies at this specific time, not that it didn’t exist. People need to be reminded: there are not true moral reformers, only those who can reform the society around them.

[quote]
So it seems to me that an appeal to objective morality won’t work. We can’t start at the beginning, we have to start at the middle. Here we are on this planet, and if we don’t want to be miserable, we’ll have to figure out some way of getting along.
[/quote

The short version is that you want to get the pretend output of morality without actually having it. That won’t work. We don’t have to get along: I can kill and maybe eat you and then rape your family members. I don’t have to get along with you or anyone, and if I don’t feel I like modern life there either is an objective moral reason to respect you anyway, or I am utterly free to do as I please.

So, for example, your “morality” is bounded solely by the relationship of you to the person attacked? You wouldn’t know it is wrong, the brutal forcing of a stronger self onto the weaker (or more vulnerable at that particular time, etc.)? You don’t disapprove of rapists for any reason other than disrupting the public order which lets you have Cinnabons and the internet?

[quote]
And if he has, how do you know that God is objectively right?

Since I am not here really arguing there is an objective morality, nor for anhy morality or divinity per se, I cannot answer. However, I would note that throughout history there have been those who achieved some sort of superior moral understanding. These individuals claimed to know . And as justification, they did not offer a logos defense of their principles, but asserted that their prior ethical understanding was simply inadequate: that their new moral depth could not even be understood. That the rules they lived by had reasons, which they were barely able to begin to comprehend and which they could not describe in human language. They did not claim to have reasons but Reason itself. And while the way they described it varies, it is not substantially different from time to time and place to place. Lao Tsu, Buddha, St. Paul, Thomas Aquinas. They knew God was objectively right in claiming they had.

If, of course, you believe in God.

Once again, you are straight off assuming a standard of value you fail to describe or justify. You assume it exists and then build your “morality” around it.

Well, if you’re arguing that relativism can’t be true, then you’re arguing that there is an objective morality. because it’s a binary condition.

I’ll assent that strong relativism can’t be true, because if relativism is true then every claim is relative, and therefore one cannot claim that relativism is true.

Dude, have you ever READ the Bible? Like, you know, Genesis and Exodus and such? Not even to mention the Iliad and the Oddessy. The people who wrote those ancient works had different ideas about morality than you and I. I happen to prefer ours, because living in a bronze age village waiting for my neighbors to invade doesn’t sound like fun.

Actually, you really are utterly free to do as you please, and the only thing I can do is try to convince you otherwise, either by argument, or by force, or by getting together 300 million of my closest friends and establishing a country with a legal system that will lock you in a cage if you don’t do as we ask. You might not have noticed, but there really are plenty of people who have decided that they don’t like modern life, and are out there raping and killing and maiming and robbing away. Nothing is stopping them except the people who don’t like being raped and killed and maimed and robbed.

If there is an objective moral reason why Jeffery Dahmer shouldn’t have killed and ate people, why didn’t that stop him from killing and eating people? The answer is, he was utterly free to disregard the rules and kill and eat according to his whim, and the only thing that stopped him was the rest of us locked him in a cage until some other inmate killed him.

So yes, we don’t HAVE to get along. It’s only that most of us WANT to get along, but if enough people decide they’re tired of getting along, then we have Nazi Germany and Rwanda and Cambodia and Nanking.

My morality is bounded by relationship in the sense that somewhere in the world right now, brutal murders and rapes and maimings are taking place, and I’m doing nothing about it, and neither are you. If I saw a crime take place in front of me, I’d try to help as best I could, but I don’t walk the earth looking for wrongs to right. The most I do is contribute my little bit to making this world function, by working and taking care of my kids (and the neighbor kids) and trying not to make things worse.

No, of course not. I don’t assume a standard of morality. My standard is myself. What kind of a life do I want? Of course, this doesn’t answer the question of WHY I want the kind of life I want. WHY do I want a quiet house with a wife and kids and no raping and killing? And the only answer I have is that I’m an animal created by evolution, and that’s just the kind of animal I am. A shark is a shark, a lion is a lion, a chimpanzee is a chimpanzee. So lots of my preferences are just part of human nature, and my particular nature. I don’t know why I don’t like cauliflower, I just don’t like it, even though some people do. It’s my preference to not eat cauliflower, although I certainly will if I’m hungry and that’s all there is. Same thing with, you know, liberal democracy. I like living in peace and security, although some people don’t seem to agree given the choices they make. Well, I’ll put up with a certain amount of nonsense, but past a certain point me and my 300 million friends are going to lock them in a cage for a while.

It has nothing to do with God or standards, except my personal standards. I realize that if I was born in Bronze Age Greece, I’d have slightly different standards, because I wouldn’t understand the potential of liberal democratic capitalism, and industrialism, and the rule of law and such. But I’d be a lot the same too, because I’d still be a human being with a human nature that I share with most people, and I’d have my particular nature that I have just because I’m me.

@smiling_bandit

“I would note that throughout history there have been those who achieved some sort of superior moral understanding. These individuals claimed to know . And as justification, they did not offer a logos defense of their principles, but asserted that their prior ethical understanding was simply inadequate: that their new moral depth could not even be understood. That the rules they lived by had reasons, which they were barely able to begin to comprehend and which they could not describe in human language. They did not claim to have reasons but Reason itself. And while the way they described it varies, it is not substantially different from time to time and place to place. Lao Tsu, Buddha, St. Paul, Thomas Aquinas. They knew God was objectively right in claiming they had.”

There are lots of warped morals that people believed in as well. I’m sure they were all in agreement that these things were moral.

King James Bible
Numbers 31: 17-18

“Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.”

God supported pedophilia. Apparently so did the Jews. I don’t think that quite meshes with modern ‘morality.’ It’s just more proof for relativism. As apparently we don’t have the same values as our ancestors.

Numbers 31: 25-40

“And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Take the sum of the prey that was taken, both of man and of beast, thou, and Eleazar the priest, and the chief fathers of the congregation:
And divide the prey into two parts; between them that took the war upon them, who went out to battle, and between all the congregation:
And levy a tribute unto the LORD of the men of war which went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, both of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the asses, and of the sheep:
Take it of their half, and give it unto Eleazar the priest, for an heave offering of the LORD.
And of the children of Israel’s half, thou shalt take one portion of fifty, of the persons, of the beeves, of the asses, and of the flocks, of all manner of beasts, and give them unto the Levites, which keep the charge of the tabernacle of the LORD.
And Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses.
And the booty, being the rest of the prey which the men of war had caught, was six hundred thousand and seventy thousand and five thousand sheep,
And threescore and twelve thousand beeves,
And threescore and one thousand asses,
And thirty and two thousand persons in all, of women that had not known man by lying with him.
And the half, which was the portion of them that went out to war, was in number three hundred thousand and seven and thirty thousand and five hundred sheep:
And the LORD’S tribute of the sheep was six hundred and threescore and fifteen.
And the beeves were thirty and six thousand; of which the LORD’S tribute was threescore and twelve.
And the asses were thirty thousand and five hundred; of which the LORD’S tribute was threescore and one.
And the persons were sixteen thousand; of which the LORD’S tribute was thirty and two persons.”

These “persons” would have also included the “women children.”

I don’t think that their actions were right or wrong, but they certainly don’t fit into today’s values. When we see these middle eastern cultures that haven’t progressed as much, we are basically just looking at older human culture.

In 1000 years we will probably have the same opinion about jail, schools, religion, government, law enforcement, etc.

Also, sorry you have such a vendetta against me. I hope you can let it go.

Well, surely all but perhaps members of the most hardened orthodox monocultures agree with some degree of relativism. You don’t seriously expect anyone to believe that you honestly propose that all humans be clones of yourself with all the exact same thoughts, beliefs, and preferences, do you?

Didn’t think so. So you’re a relativist too. Where the debate comes in is, which things, and to what degree, can we say that things are either inherent or subject to personal preference?

Then we get into the other important category besides inherent goodness or personal preference: context.

So for example, drawing an ace is “good” for the purpose of the the goal of winning a card game. But you can’t say that drawing an ace is “good” outside of the context of card games.

A more difficult example: killing. Surely killing is never “good” right? On the other hand, what about pulling the plug on someone in horrible pain? Killing animals for food? Defending yourself or your country from attack?

Many supposedly good goals, such as, preserving life, preventing suffering, being intellectually honest, obeying your parents, freedom, honesty, providing food and shelter, often conflict with each other in ordinary circumstances.

And of course, some goals are even self-conflicting. In order to preserve ten lives, you may be forced to take one.

So you can see, no thing has inherent goodness. Things only have goodness with regard to their ability to further goals.

And even the goals themselves cannot be said to be inherently good - there are many possible candidates for worthwhile goals, but they can all potentially conflict with each other or even themselves.

Then of course we get to the specific controversy of cultural relativism. Of which there are:

  1. Anthropological - I think this one is important - you can’t study something properly without impartiality

  2. Political - It’s important to note that while hard relativism says that nothing is inherently “better” than anything else, it doesn’t actually say that there is any reason not to act to further your own preferences.

So while raping little girls is not inherently “worse” than protecting them, it is of course at odd with the goals of gender equality, bodily privacy, preventing suffering, maintaining the innocence of children, etc. In those places or for those people for whom other goals take precedence, it may be considered “good” for their goals of power, or sexual satisfaction, or transferred revenge, etc.

I of course, prefer protecting little girls from rape. And I support taking action against other people and cultures that are a party to it. But I don’t believe that most of them consider themselves to be doing “wrong”. They are merely pursuing the goals and values which they consider to be important.

Now of course, while things don’t have inherent goodness, most people are very adverse to pain, suffering, and death, plus they are hardwired with their mirror neurons to naturally imagine how others are feeling or would feel. So there is a solid basis for certain preferences to be more statistically likely.

Which gets us to the social contract. It’s fun to think of people caring about others, and many of course, do. But even in the total absence of that, we could still have a nice society for ourselves with the social contract. By not doing the things we don’t want have done to us, we silently communicate the kind of world we want to live in. The social contract, or golden rule, allows us to align with the majority of people with common goals or preference to create the kind of experience we want.

I think probably the most encompassing goal is freedom. Of course, freedom comes in three flavors, and these flavors can conflict:

  1. Freedom to choose
  2. Freedom to have
  3. Freedom from

I think it’s very brave, to give such consideration and respect to the worth of human beings very different from yourself as to reexamine your own long term values and preferences.

I kind of thought the whole point of relativism was that there is no innate morality. Just because there is no morality does not mean that there is no basis for ones actions. There are still preferences and goals.