# Prosperity theology... huh? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 22, 2017, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prosperity-theology-huh/799555 "2017-10-22T16:27:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![2Bits](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e95f7d/32.png) [@2Bits](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2Bits)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prosperity-theology-huh/799555/1 "2017-10-22T16:27:45Z")
How do those who subscribe to the so-called “prosperity gospel” square their notions with Jesus’ talk about camels and needles and stuff like that? ---
**Author:** ![Tatterdemalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/43a26b/32.png) [@Tatterdemalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tatterdemalion)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prosperity-theology-huh/799555/2 "2017-10-22T16:35:21Z")
They prefer this verse: [http://biblehub.com/matthew/13-12.htm](http://biblehub.com/matthew/13-12.htm) > [@New International Version](#): > > Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prosperity-theology-huh/799555/3 "2017-10-22T16:40:13Z")
> [@2Bits](#): > > How do those who subscribe to the so-called “prosperity gospel” square their notions with Jesus’ talk about camels and needles and stuff like that? Simple. Doesn’t apply to them. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prosperity-theology-huh/799555/4 "2017-10-22T16:41:22Z")
> [@Tatterdemalion](#): > > They prefer this verse: > > [http://biblehub.com/matthew/13-12.htm](http://biblehub.com/matthew/13-12.htm) > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by **New International Version** > > Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. **New Living Translation** version. > [@](#): > > To those who listen to my teaching, more understanding will be given, and they will have an abundance of knowledge. But for those who are not listening, even what little understanding they have will be taken away from them. A wee bit different. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prosperity-theology-huh/799555/5 "2017-10-22T17:11:23Z")
They’re still trying to grapple with the problem of evil: why do bad things happen to good people? This form of denial tries to square this with reality by holding that good things happen to good people. It’s an echo of the doctrine of the “Visible Elect.” You know that healthy guy with a big house is blessed by God…because he’s healthy and has a big house. The truth is that bad things happen to good people and to bad people just about equally. Prayer doesn’t “work,” it doesn’t have concrete real-world benefits. The kinds of believers who suffer from “magical thinking” can’t accept that, and work very hard to claim that faith does have real effects. A guy’s house was spared in the hurricane or fire: “God was looking out for me.” But why did God not look out for his neighbor? (If Satan were really in charge of this corrupt world, non-believers should have lots and lots of visible advantages, specifically to deceive believers!) ---
**Author:** ![DorkVader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/73ab20/32.png) [@DorkVader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DorkVader)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prosperity-theology-huh/799555/6 "2017-10-22T17:57:40Z")
From my experience with a preacher who taught the prosperity gospel, the idea is that for The Church to be able to Do God’s Work in the Real World, you have to have money, which is not intrinsically evil. How does The Church get money? From donations by those who attend of course. Thus, go out and be Prosperous, make lots of money and you only have to tithe as much as you want to (but to honor the old testament covenant 10% pre-tax is recommended of course) This preacher had a bunch of scripture\* he used to support this, and it amounted to “God doesn’t want you to be poor, He knows how the world works, he set it up, He just doesn’t want you to be selfish or stingy with the money He ‘gives’ you” \*I don’t remember what verses he used, this was the preacher who kicked me out of his church years ago ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prosperity-theology-huh/799555/7 "2017-10-22T22:35:53Z")
> [@2Bits](#): > > How do those who subscribe to the so-called “prosperity gospel” square their notions with Jesus’ talk about camels and needles and stuff like that? They follow the old TV trope notion of, when all else fails, retcon. > **[What Is the Eye of a Needle?](https://www.gty.org/library/blog/B150914/frequently-abused-verses-what-is-the-eye-of-a-needle)** > > In the lead-up to the Truth Matters conference in October, we will be focusing our attention on the sufficiency, authority, and clarity of Scripture. Of our previous blog series, none better embod > [@](#): > > Based on the simple reading of the text, there shouldn’t be any confusion about what it means to pass a camel through the eye of a needle (the reference also appears in Matthew 19:24 and Mark 10:25). And yet I’ve witnessed pastors do all sorts of exegetical gymnastics to explain away the clear meaning of Christ’s words—not only in my original Australian congregation, but throughout Europe and America, as well. What at first glance seems like a straightforward hyperbolic illustration has been twisted, contorted, and explained away through eisegesis and iffy archeology. > > The explanation usually goes something like this: Christ wasn’t referring to the eye of a literal needle—that would be preposterous. Instead, He was talking about a narrow entrance into the city of Jerusalem, a gate known locally as “the eye of the needle.” This gate was so small that a camel could only be brought through with great difficulty, squeezed through on its knees—which depicts how we humbly need to come to the Lord. More here: > **[What Is The Eye Of The Needle (Matthew 19:23-24 / Mark 10:25)?](https://dustoffthebible.com/Blog-archive/2015/09/30/what-is-the-eye-of-the-needle-matthew-1923-24-mark-1025/)** > > TLDR Video Summary > > > > > > > > > Most of us know the passage in Matthew 19:23-24, Mark 10:25, and Luke 18:23-24, where Jesus gives us the famous eye of the needle illustration. It's the one passage that confounds the prosperity gospel preachers. > “Truly I... ---
**Author:** ![CelticKnot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/celticknot/32/3392_2.png) [@CelticKnot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CelticKnot)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prosperity-theology-huh/799555/8 "2017-10-22T22:53:17Z")
Cognitive dissonance can be very liberating. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prosperity-theology-huh/799555/9 "2017-10-22T23:02:23Z")
> [@2Bits](#): > > How do those who subscribe to the so-called “prosperity gospel” square their notions with Jesus’ talk about camels and needles and stuff like that? In my opinion, for whatever that’s worth, they don’t. Bother to square their preaching with the Gospels, that is. They know full well it can’t be done. And I say this as a practicing, churchgoing Christian (specifically, Catholic). I believe that most, if not all, of the prosperity gospel preachers are sociopaths who don’t believe a word they’re saying. They’ve discovered that they have something of a talent for oratory, and have found a way to convince large number of people to part with their money. Joel Osteen, Creflo Dollar, Benny Hinn, the whole pack of them, they’re just scammers. There’s something to what Trinopus said above, about the elect being favored by God here on this earth. That’s pretty Calvinist (and my church rejects the idea entirely), but it has nothing to do with the prosperity gospel in its modern form. ---
**Author:** ![Tatterdemalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/43a26b/32.png) [@Tatterdemalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tatterdemalion)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prosperity-theology-huh/799555/10 "2017-10-22T23:06:51Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > **New Living Translation** version. > > A wee bit different. True. That’s why they don’t use that version. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prosperity-theology-huh/799555/11 "2017-10-22T23:24:11Z")
> [@2Bits](#): > > How do those who subscribe to the so-called “prosperity gospel” square their notions with Jesus’ talk about camels and needles and stuff like that? Simple: All of those verses are there, in the text, and completely true, but the meaning you ascribe to them is utter interpretation, and therefore not true, which means Jesus meant something compatible with Prosperity Gospel by those parables, and if you were to read the text truly, literally, and prayerfully, you, too, would see the light and give Joel Osteen a lot of money. Remember: Interpretation is what the Enemy does. We read things literally. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prosperity-theology-huh/799555/12 "2017-10-22T23:24:17Z")
I can only tell you what I think my parents believe. God doesn’t want us to be poor. There is no virtue in poverty. There is virtue in having a humble spirit. So you can have your nice things. Just don’t brag about having them. Don’t lord them over others or be boastful about them. And be generous with them. I also think my parents believe that the moral of the Parable of the Talents is that we are obligated to get the most out of what has been invested in us. It is wrong to be satisfied with the bare minimum. If God has given you great intelligence, then it is a shame for you to not put it to good use–like by working at a “good” job where you can get a “good” salary. Because by seeking these “good” things, you allow yourself to be a testimony to God’s blessings. And you can also help other people. But if you waste your gifts by living a marginal life doing marginal things, you’re like that lazy and/or overly cautious guy in the parable who doesn’t make any money for his master. I think many Christians believe that God didn’t put us here just for us to play life on easy mode. If you play life on easy mode, you never experience strife and struggle, which means you never have to beg for help from Heavenly Father. A lot of Christians believe that kind of neediness is important for spiritual development. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2017, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prosperity-theology-huh/799555/13 "2017-10-22T23:36:08Z")
Here’s a decent recent article: [The prosperity gospel, explained: Why Joel Osteen believes that prayer can make you rich](https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/9/1/15951874/prosperity-gospel-explained-why-joel-osteen-believes-prayer-can-make-you-rich-trump) ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2017, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prosperity-theology-huh/799555/14 "2017-10-23T07:40:19Z")
Theologians, with the creation of Satan, got that covered by a concept that wasn’t given a name until the Reagan administration: Plausible Deniability. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2017, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prosperity-theology-huh/799555/15 "2017-10-23T08:56:12Z")
That’s the thing about the Bible- there’s something there for everybody (and not necessarily in a good way). ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2017, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prosperity-theology-huh/799555/16 "2017-10-23T10:01:30Z")
> [@2Bits](#): > > How do those who subscribe to the so-called “prosperity gospel” square their notions with Jesus’ talk about camels and needles and stuff like that? Someone is offering a theology that tells people they can be filthy, stinking rich on earth and live forever in paradise, and you wonder why people believe it? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2017, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prosperity-theology-huh/799555/17 "2017-10-23T13:06:26Z")
As has already been mentioned in this thread, when trying to figure out why people believe something, it helps to think: 1. What do people get out of believing it? 2. What do people get out of convincing other people to believe it? ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2017, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prosperity-theology-huh/799555/18 "2017-10-23T13:25:56Z")
Dang, makes me wanna go out and buy a copy of [The Secret](https://www.thesecret.tv/). Or not. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2017, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prosperity-theology-huh/799555/19 "2017-10-23T13:28:41Z")
“Jesus was a man, who travelled cross the land A hard working man and brave He said to the rich, “Give your money to the poor” So they lay Jesus Christ in his grave” -Woody Guthrie ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2017, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prosperity-theology-huh/799555/20 "2017-10-23T13:46:56Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > There’s something to what Trinopus said above, about the elect being favored by God here on this earth. That’s pretty Calvinist (and my church rejects the idea entirely), but it has nothing to do with the prosperity gospel in its modern form. Yeah, the predestination model says that your material wealth on earth is proof that you’re going to heaven. If you’re poor, all the more reason to work hard and try to pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Also a very good reason to be respectful of your betters - they’re going to heaven, after all, and it’s still up in the air for your sad sack of a self. In other words, Joe Millionaire is rich _because_ he’s going to heaven. Prosperity theology says, look, you’re poor. Nothing earthly is going to magically make you rich. You’re not going to win the lotto, you’re not going to make millions in the stock market, you’re not going to wake up tomorrow making six figures. But you can afford to send fifty bucks a month to your church, right? That fifty bucks isn’t going to change your life, but think of all the good it will do in the hands of the holy. And guess what? By sending that money, you’re planting a seed which will grow into wealth because God is going to reward your faith with vast riches. It’s not only the best investment you can make - it’s the only one that’s guaranteed. I mean, maybe not today or even this year, but keep sending that check. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prosperity-theology-huh/799555.md?page=2)