# Prostitution and Feminism **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 26, 2003, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prostitution-and-feminism/215347 "2003-11-26T08:45:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![neutron\_star](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/51bf81/32.png) [@neutron\_star](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/neutron_star)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2003, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prostitution-and-feminism/215347/41 "2003-11-27T01:42:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mswas \* > **There is even a certain stigma put upon a man that would sleep with a prostitute, even though, for the most part, probably 1 in 4 men you meet has slept with one at some point.** It depends on who you [meet](http://magazine.uchicago.edu/0210/research/invest-open.html): > [@](#): > > In the United States, conversely, older men have employed prostitutes more often than young men. The 1992 sex survey shows about 33 percent of U.S. men who turned 20 in the 1950s have paid for sex. As the sexual revolution and women’s lib arrived in the 1960s, the use of prostitutes began to drop, and by the early 1990s, when casual sex was more readily available, rates reached as low as 5 percent. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2003, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prostitution-and-feminism/215347/42 "2003-11-27T02:11:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by neutron star \* > \*\*It depends on who you [meet](http://magazine.uchicago.edu/0210/research/invest-open.html): \*\* There’s another element left unspoken in the linked article. American men who have used prostitutes could easily have done so during military service in Europe/the Pacific, Korea or Vietnam. The article states that “sexual revolution and women’s lib arrived in the 1960s” while ignoring that the draft effectively ended in the 1970s. Foreign wars since have involved smaller numbers of generally older, better-educated volunteer soldiers less likely to seek out prostitutes. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2003, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prostitution-and-feminism/215347/43 "2003-11-27T06:35:35Z")
For one who so glibly accuses society of being “condescending”, your attitudes toward the “ignorant pricks” of the SDMB pulling apart your tissue thin, mostly handwaving arguments like cotton candy, seems pretty well… condescending, especially when you are in no position, via your weak OP, to be condescending to anyone. Prostitution has been generally looked down upon cross culturally for a long, long. long time. Being a hooker is overwhelmingly a _choice_ in modern industrialized societies, and women most often choose to do this because it pays quite well. It’s not a calling, it’s fucking people for money. “Pretty Woman” fantasies aside virtually no woman decides to do tricks with without some fairly precise knowledge of how “society” feels about her choice of occupation. If you expect to have a reasonable shot at changing how people, especially women, view prostitutes, you’re going to have arrange for sea change in social mores and the fundamental nature sexual relationships. Personally, I think we’ll see flying cars buzzing around before that happens. Good Luck. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2003, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prostitution-and-feminism/215347/44 "2003-11-27T07:11:34Z")
I’m gonna have to side with \*\* Malacandra\*\* and say the OP is full of it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2003, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prostitution-and-feminism/215347/45 "2003-11-27T13:04:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by astro \* > For one who so glibly accuses society of being “condescending”, your attitudes toward the “ignorant pricks” of the SDMB pulling apart your tissue thin, mostly handwaving arguments like cotton candy, seems pretty well… condescending, especially when you are in no position, via your weak OP, to be condescending to anyone. This is why I love this place. Weak arguments rise or fall on their merit. Well said, **astro**. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![badmana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@badmana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badmana)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2003, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prostitution-and-feminism/215347/46 "2003-11-27T19:45:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Thudlow Boink \* > \*\*Are we talking about “respect” as how you **treat** somebody, or as how you **feel** about them? Everyone deserves a _basic level_ of respect; no one should be treated like shit. Right; good; I agree. Let’s just make sure we’re not saying that everyone deserves **equal** respect. I don’t have nearly as much respect for, say, child molesters and serial killers as I do for actual Good People, and yes, that lack of respect is directly because of what they’ve done and the paths they’ve chosen. > > Way to twist his words there! He said “meaningful,” not “magical.” And if sex isn’t meaningful to you, fine, but it’s a bit much to ask that how people treat what’s meaningful to us **not** afftect how we feel about them. > > What, someone who’s not gettin’ any? :dubious: Or was that just me? \*\* Nice way to twist my words there. Equating a hooker with a child molester? A prostitute hurts no one so a better example might be hating (and I mean the level of hate that causes people to kill hookers just because) telemarketers and trying to kill them just because they call you during dinner (I’m not trying to open up a debate on telemarketers here). Not respecting someone who has hurt others is very different than not respecting a prostitute because she (or he) happens to be one. And I didn’t twist his words because I wasn’t quoting him. Some people really do think sex is some magical interaction between 2 consenting adults. Just because you have differing idea’s of what sex should be doesn’t mean you should berate those that have differing opinions. I don’t treat prostitutes any differently than any other stranger but for some reason many people do. No getting any? Well, not where I come from. Your average teenage inner city boy might fuck a dozen women before they’re 20. But you have a girl do the same thing and she’s a slut or whore. I just don’t use the words prostitute and whore interchangably because they can mean different things. ---
**Author:** ![badmana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@badmana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badmana)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2003, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prostitution-and-feminism/215347/47 "2003-11-27T19:57:27Z")
Damnit, I need to preview more. I wanted to add that I do mean that everyone should have a basic level of respect including criminals. I might not go out of my way to save a criminal’s life (if I knew before hand) but I also wouldn’t go out of my way to be extra cruel to them either. ---
**Author:** ![scule](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@scule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scule)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2003, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prostitution-and-feminism/215347/48 "2003-11-27T20:48:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by badmana \* > \*\*Taking the post as a whole, I tend to agree with the OP. How society treats it’s “minorities” can be very enlightining. Wasn’t there some saying, how society treats it’s prisoners reflects society as a whole fairly well? > > This is what the OP was ranting about (rather weakly). Everyone deserves a basic level of respect. When you treat people like shit only because of what they do reflects poorly on you. I dislike slow drivers but I’m not about to treat them like insects because I disagree with how they drive. > > It’s great that people treat sex as some magical interaction between humans but really, sex is sex, and what you think sex is shouldn’t change how you feel about others who treat it differently. Do you treat religious people the same way **scule**? Since you’re not religious do you scorn people who treat religion differently? > > I also want to point out a whore and a prostitute tend to be different things (at least where I grew up). A whore is the female equivalent to your average horny teenage male. A prostitute fucks for money. \*\* I think you are going light on logic, here. I never said anything about treating people a certain way based on what they do, I merely said I do not feel prostitution deserves respect. I will not spit on a prostitute, or hit one, or be cruel or in any way malignant to one, because I have manners. But I do not see why I should have to respect them because they are a prostitute. I don’t respect the profession, or the choice to become one, or what it represents. I think it cheapens something I hold dear. In your next post, you go further down the illogical path and knock **Thudlow Boink** (thanks for the defence, by the way) for his comparison. Unfair. His comparison is meant simply to illustrate that there are ways in which your position is untenable (at least in terms of how you worded it). It doesn’t matter if he mentioned child molesters or left-handed people. All that matters is the meaning. Everyone deserves basic human dignity, only a fool would think otherwise. But anything beyond that is a courtesy extended to the individual that I do not feel is warranted for someone who has sex for money. You may feel differently, and that’s fine, but really, I don’t care. ---
**Author:** ![badmana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@badmana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badmana)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2003, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prostitution-and-feminism/215347/49 "2003-11-27T21:03:03Z")
Fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2003, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prostitution-and-feminism/215347/50 "2003-11-27T21:16:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by astro \* > **For one who so glibly accuses society of being “condescending”, your attitudes toward the “ignorant pricks” of the SDMB pulling apart your tissue thin, mostly handwaving arguments like cotton candy, seems pretty well… condescending, especially when you are in no position, via your weak OP, to be condescending to anyone.** While I don’t agree with all the conclusions reached by the OP, there’s a hard core of truth to the assertion that prostitutes are treated like shit for no good reason. There’s really no way around the central fact of this injustice unless you believe that accepting money for sex is evil – not just wrong, or wrongheaded, but morally evil, like child molesting or rape or murder. I think that’s a hard case to make. A VERY hard case. And people talking about arguments that are mostly handwaving and like cotton candy … well Mr. Pot meet Mr. Kettle, he has something to say to you. **Prostitution has been generally looked down upon cross culturally for a long, long. long time.** Slavery was a respected cultural institution for a very long, time. Doesn’t make it right. A lot of traditional morality is obvious horse shit if you look at it objectively, and the traditional attitude toward prostitution definitely belongs in the "horse shit’ bin. **Being a hooker is overwhelmingly a _choice_ in modern industrialized societies, and women most often choose to do this because it pays quite well.** What sort of “choice” is it? If you mean that women in industrialized countries don’t find themselves faced with the dilemma of “sell it or starve” I agree. But I can’t fault a woman for choosing hooking over a life lived in poverty working at burger doodle or Mall World or such. It’s a choice, but I’m not respecting it. \*\*If you expect to have a reasonable shot at changing how people, especially women, view prostitutes, you’re going to have arrange for sea change in social mores and the fundamental nature sexual relationships. Personally, I think we’ll see flying cars buzzing around before that happens. Good Luck. I think you’re projecting your own attitudes onto others here. Not everyone shares your values. ---
**Author:** ![cowgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cowgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cowgirl)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2003, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prostitution-and-feminism/215347/51 "2003-11-27T21:17:03Z")
**Malacandra** , as per your request Misogyny: you said that this > [@](#): > > women are groped whether they like it or not, to boyfriends that beat their girlfriends, or in the corporate world where we are taught that women can be men just as well as any man can, but deserve less money for it, was “utter bollocks” and then for good measure spat out > [@](#): > > Vintage 1970s victim feminism. Got issues? I’d also like to hear how this > [@](#): > > for the most part in America, people don’t really care, unless their right to a Playstation or Expedition is at stake. is “utter bollocks.” This is certainly what I’ve read in a number of threads having to do with SUVs. And in unrelated news … **astro** , could I have a cite for this? > [@](#): > > Being a hooker is overwhelmingly a choice in modern industrialized societies Students and single parents are not well suited to office jobs, due to the hours and the pay. They could get them, but don’t you understand that taking an office job is not a solution, since it would prevent them from studying/looking after kids, and prevent them from paying for food/rent/tuition? Not saying that they shouldn’t get one, just that it’s not as simple as “they should just flip burgers.” And again I will ask where the men are in this equation. Women are dirty whores for selling sex, sure, whatever. But there’s no such thing as a dirty man who would _pay_ for such a thing. As long as there is a demand for sex for money (a demand which comes overwhelmingly from _men_) there will be a supply of it. Misogyny is ignoring the role that men play and blaming it all on the women. And misogyny is allowing women who work in this industry to be murdered, without the widespread uproar that would come out of any other identifiable community being targeted: [Simon Fraser University](http://www.sfu.ca/sterlingprize/recipients/lowmanart.htm): > [@](#): > > 1 in 20 women murdered in Canada was a known prostitute. in [Vancouver](http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/pickton/index.html), where 65 prostitutes are listed as ‘missing’ > [@](#): > > Families of the missing women have accused Vancouver police of mishandling the investigation from the beginning by ignoring evidence that a serial killer was at work. The RCMP became involved in 2001. > > The families also say police neglected the cases because many of the women were prostitutes and drug addicts. > > It wasn’t until August of 2001 that Vancouver police began hinting that a serial killer could be responsible for the disappearance of the missing women. At the time 31 women had vanished, but four had been accounted for and two of those were confirmed dead. And I imagine [this](http://www.missingpeople.net/prostitution_laws_make_murder_ea.htm) is utter bollocks as well: > [@](#): > > Across Canada, 73 prostitutes have been murdered over the last decade, a number that understates the grim reality because it only includes women police knew to be working at the time of death. It also excludes the missing women of Vancouver and the latest murders in Edmonton. But experts agree that almost all prostitutes murdered in Canada work on the street, not indoors. > > \ > > So why does it happen over and over on our streets? Gary Ridgway helped answer that question in his confession. “I picked prostitutes as my victims because I hate most prostitutes and I did not want to pay them for sex. I also picked prostitutes as victims because they were easy to pick up without being noticed. I knew they would not be reported missing right away and might never be reported missing. I picked prostitutes because I thought I could kill as many of them as I wanted without getting caught.” > > Most street prostitutes are radically marginalized people, disconnected from family, friends and community – which explains why their disappearances may not be reported. But why are they “easy to pick up without being noticed”? Finally, in [Toronto](http://www.nowtoronto.com/issues/2003-10-23/news_story.php) > [@](#): > > most women refuse to go to the police to file an official report when they’re raped and beaten. “It’s happened quite a few times where women have gone down (to report) a sex crime and end up being arrested for a prostitution-related offence.” But no, allowing this to happen isn’t “misogyny,” nor is it that “people really don’t care.” I guess it’s just a figment of these women’s imagination. ---
**Author:** ![Ryle\_Dup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Ryle\_Dup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryle_Dup)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2003, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prostitution-and-feminism/215347/52 "2003-11-27T21:36:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cowgirl \* > **Malacandra** , as per your request > > Misogyny: > > you said that this > > was “utter bollocks” Yes, it is utter bollocks. [quote] and then for good measure spat out > [@](#): > > **astro** , could I have a cite for this? Burden of proof and all that. > [@](#): > > Students and single parents are not well suited to office jobs, due to the hours and the pay. They could get them, but don’t you understand that taking an office job is not a solution, since it would prevent them from studying/looking after kids, and prevent them from paying for food/rent/tuition? Not saying that they shouldn’t get one, just that it’s not as simple as “they should just flip burgers.” Tough titty said the kitty. Can’t study with an office job? Look for another job. Theres a lot of jobs that don’t involve screwing strangers. > [@](#): > > And again I will ask where the men are in this equation. Women are dirty whores for selling sex, sure, whatever. But there’s no such thing as a dirty man who would _pay_ for such a thing. Yes there is, you’re assuming people give respect to the men sleeping with these prostitutes, but they don’t. Stop pulling things out of your ass because this is a strawman. > [@](#): > > As long as there is a demand for sex for money (a demand which comes overwhelmingly from _men_) there will be a supply of it. Misogyny is ignoring the role that men play and blaming it all on the women. The men make the market, the women fulfill the demand. Nobody is ignoring the part of the men, the only reason we’re concentrating on the women is because that’s what the OP is about. > [@](#): > > And misogyny is allowing women who work in this industry to be murdered, without the widespread uproar that would come out of any other identifiable community being targeted: Allowing them? You friggin moron, nobody is “allowing” them, you act as if we’re standing and cheering on people beating prostitutes to death. Get off your fucking horse. You can call me a misogynist, I’m happy to take the title, and I’m sure it will cheer up my girlfriend, who is quite happy with my attitude of equality. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2003, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prostitution-and-feminism/215347/53 "2003-11-27T22:34:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by badmana \* > **Equating a hooker with a child molester?** Yeah, I didn’t mean to equate prostitutes with child molesters, but after I posted I realized it might have come across that way, and if so, I apologize. I was just putting forth some counterexamples to the position that everyone should be respected equally no matter what they do. ---
**Author:** ![1010011010](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/ea666f/32.png) [@1010011010](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1010011010)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prostitution-and-feminism/215347/54 "2003-11-28T02:37:45Z")
To those that say they dislike prostitutes and prostitution because of how it may affect the percieved value of sex, how do you feel about girls that don’t charge for it, yet still fuck like hookers? (I.E. multiple partners in a night, relative strangers, etc.) ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prostitution-and-feminism/215347/55 "2003-11-28T03:19:55Z")
> [@](#): > > **cowgirl** said: > But no, allowing this to happen isn’t “misogyny,” nor is it that “people really don’t care.” I guess it’s just a figment of these women’s imagination. If someone confesses to one crime in the reporting of another, it doesn’t let them off the hook for the crime they did commit. > [@](#): > > **Ryle Dup** said: > Tough titty said the kitty. Can’t study with an office job? Look for another job. Theres a lot of jobs that don’t involve screwing strangers. You’re right. There are other jobs. I worked from midnight to eight in the morning, went to classes during the day, and studied. Yes, it was tiring as hell. But it can be done. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prostitution-and-feminism/215347/56 "2003-11-28T03:30:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Evil Captor \* > While I don’t agree with all the conclusions reached by the OP, there’s a hard core of truth to the assertion that prostitutes are treated like shit for no good reason. There’s really no way around the central fact of this injustice unless you believe that accepting money for sex is evil – not just wrong, or wrongheaded, but morally evil, like child molesting or rape or murder. > > I think that’s a hard case to make. A VERY hard case. And people talking about arguments that are mostly handwaving and like cotton candy … well Mr. Pot meet Mr. Kettle, he has something to say to you. > > **Prostitution has been generally looked down upon cross culturally for a long, long, long time.** > > Slavery was a respected cultural institution for a very long, time. Doesn’t make it right. A lot of traditional morality is obvious horse shit if you look at it objectively, and the traditional attitude toward prostitution definitely belongs in the "horse shit’ bin. This is statement of historical fact I made, predicate to the point about prostitutes knowing exactly what they are getting into with respect to existing societal attitudes toward fucking people for money. If you feel this is not a historical fact please elaborate. > [@](#): > > **Being a hooker is overwhelmingly a _choice_ in modern industrialized societies, and women most often choose to do this because it pays quite well.** > > What sort of “choice” is it? If you mean that women in industrialized countries don’t find themselves faced with the dilemma of “sell it or starve” I agree. But I can’t fault a woman for choosing hooking over a life lived in poverty working at burger doodle or Mall World or such. It’s a choice, but I’m not respecting it. So… the alternative to being a hooker isn’t retail, secretarial, sales or factory work, being a waitress or any one of thousands of service jobs that millions of people seem to get by on in a modern industrial economy … it’s _poverty_? Here’s a newsflash for you. Most women don’t decide on the potentially dangerous and illegal business of prostitution, because their options are constrained to the two choices of poverty or fucking for money. They do it because they can make a lot of money, more quickly, and with less effort than less desirable alternatives that pay less and require greater effort. The choice of being a prostitute in modern industrialized societies has far less to do with economic opression of the underclass, and more to do with hard economic choices individuals make about risk and reward in their occupational choices. > [@](#): > > **If you expect to have a reasonable shot at changing how people, especially women, view prostitutes, you’re going to have arrange for a sea change in social mores and the fundamental nature of sexual relationships. Personally, I think we’ll see flying cars buzzing around before that happens. Good Luck.** > > I think you’re projecting your own attitudes onto others here. Not everyone shares your values. I still want flying cars. ---
**Author:** ![Ryle\_Dup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Ryle\_Dup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryle_Dup)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prostitution-and-feminism/215347/57 "2003-11-28T03:45:40Z")
But then you’ll have flying hookers being picked up by flying cars and then the whole elite class of mile high clubbers will be RUINED! ---
**Author:** ![ArrMatey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/arrmatey/32/3522_2.png) [@ArrMatey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArrMatey)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prostitution-and-feminism/215347/58 "2003-11-28T05:56:43Z")
Ryle (May I call you Ryle?), Can I use that as my sig line? ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prostitution-and-feminism/215347/59 "2003-11-28T06:43:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by 1010011010 \* > \*\*To those that say they dislike prostitutes and prostitution because of how it may affect the percieved value of sex, how do you feel about girls that don’t charge for it, yet still fuck like hookers? (I.E. multiple partners in a night, relative strangers, etc.) \*\* Grateful? ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prostitution-and-feminism/215347/60 "2003-11-28T11:11:46Z")
Hello **Cowgirl**. Yanno, there’s nothing like a good old scare-word like “misogynist” to fan the flames of a debate. It’s like blood in the water. The shark that took the first bite has swum away, and now up pops another one drawn irresistibly by the terrible, insistent, coppery smell that presses the little button in its microscopic brain without the need for conscious thought. Well, let’s get to it. > [@](#): > > Originally blustered by mswas \*\*…women are groped whether they like it or not, to boyfriends that beat their girlfriends, or in the corporate world where we are taught that women can be men just as well as any man can, but deserve less money for it, \*\* I called this “utter bollocks” because it was less time-consuming than going through it point by point and demonstrating that none of these actually constitute evidence of a universal socially-sanctioned hatred of women (USSHOW), which was what **mswas** was arguing for. Still, if I must take it really slowly: I don’t view “groping” as evidence of hatred (would you want to grope someone you hated?), and besides, we do have plenty of protection for women (more so, in practice, than for men, I’d guess); male violence against women cannot be taken as evidence of USSHOW unless you can come up with a really good argument that explains why male violence against men (far more prevalent) or female violence against either sex can also be taken as evidence of the same, or else wished away; and the argument about levels of female pay is far more complex than simply complaining that “we are taught that women can be men just as well as any man can, but deserve less money for it”. “Utter bollocks” was briefer and more to the point. > [@](#): > > Originally “spat out” ( **Cowgirl** ) by Malacandra \*\*…Vintage 1970s victim feminism. Got issues? \*\* Yeah, like I say, victim feminism – the kind that spews out a tissue of accusations against _men_, the gender enemy, for every ill and all ills in this imperfect world. Personally I hold it in contempt. The kind of feminist I respect doesn’t sign up to this approach. And for **mswas** , who I assume from context is a man, to trot it out… well, you have to seriously hate your own sex to start flogging yourself and your fellow men like this. > [@](#): > > Originally snivelled by mswas \*\*…for the most part in America, people don’t really care, unless their right to a Playstation or Expedition is at stake. \*\* Again, IANAY, and I’ve yet to visit the States (I’d like to, one of these days), so I can’t speak from first hand. Possibly it _is_ the case that the average American can’t see further beyond his nose than the latest must-have consumer toy. Personally I doubt it. I understand, from anecdotal evidence, that the typical American is in fact pleasant, friendly, hospitable and generous, for which reason I find **mswas** ’s inane drivel devoid of justification and offensive to boot. “Utter bollocks” got the idea across more tersely, however. Now, you may disagree with my reasoning and point out errors of fact. I never claimed to be infallible. On the other hand, I think I’ve explained my reasoning clearly enough to make it quite clear that simply screaming “misogynist!” won’t do; not when I can advance enough explanation to show that I can hold such views _without_ hating women. Of course, who needs argument when giving a dog a bad name and hanging him will do? :dubious: I see the rest of your nonsense has been pulled to pieces adequately enough that I don’t need to waste my time. But you left one or two pieces of low-hanging fruit that I’ll pick: > [@](#): > > Originally whined by Cowgirl **…And misogyny is allowing women who work in this industry** “industry” :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > **to be murdered, without the widespread uproar that would come out of any other identifiable community being targeted** Rubbish. To make the “misogyny” label stick you would have to demonstrate that “nobody cares”, and further that “nobody cares” not because these are _prostitutes_ but because they are _women_ – which I strongly doubt you can do. And supposing you were able to manage this, I’d like to hear your reasoning as to why the fact that men incur upwards of 95% of work-related deaths isn’t considered “misandry”. (What a horrible sentence. Well, it’ll have to do.) > [@](#): > > Originally whined by Cowgirl \*\*…Most street prostitutes are radically marginalized people, disconnected from family, friends and community – which explains why their disappearances may not be reported. But why are they “easy to pick up without being noticed”? \*\* Duh. Because they get picked up in the line of “business” anyway, and no-one has any reason to think this unusual at the time. Off you go and argue for whores’ rights all you like (idiom to the contrary, the dictionary that I grew up with has “whore” and “prostitute” as synonyms, and that’s the meaning I’m running with), but I think you’re pissing into the wind trying to argue that disapproval of prostitutes is rooted in USSHOW – which was the silly point that **mswas** was vaguely trying to establish in the first place. 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