# Prostitution is immoral and therefore should be outlawed

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prostitution-is-immoral-and-therefore-should-be-outlawed/336149>\
**Category:** Great Debates\
**Created:** [December 18, 2005, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prostitution-is-immoral-and-therefore-should-be-outlawed/336149 "2005-12-18T09:53:41Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 6

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**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2005, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prostitution-is-immoral-and-therefore-should-be-outlawed/336149/101 "2005-12-18T22:55:48Z")

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> [@Bricker](#):
>
> Liberal feminists also abhor prostitution, and also seek to make it illegal.

Actually, if not a flat-out untruth, that statement is, at very best, a dramatic oversimplification.

Some liberal feminists do indeed adopt the position your ascribe to them.

Others dislike prostitution, but accept its inevitability and believe that the best way to protect the women involved is to legalize and regulate it.

Still other liberal feminists believe that prostitution _as currently practiced_ is problematic, because of our society’s long-standing imbalance of power between the sexes, but that if this broader issue could be addressed then there would be nothing inherently bad about prostitution.

And still other liberal feminists believe that, while prostitution poses dangers to some of its practitioners, it also acts as a form of empowerment for many women, allowing them economic and social opportunities they wouldn’t otherwise have.

But of course you, as “a conservative, a practicing Catholic, [and] a Knight of Columbus,” are the right person to speak for liberal feminists.

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**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2005, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prostitution-is-immoral-and-therefore-should-be-outlawed/336149/102 "2005-12-18T22:58:41Z")

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> [@yojimbo](#):
>
> I look forward to your future threads about outlawing divorce and contraception.

And homosexuality. And euthanasia. And mandatory charitable giving.

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**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2005, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prostitution-is-immoral-and-therefore-should-be-outlawed/336149/103 "2005-12-18T23:01:30Z")

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> [@Digital Stimulus](#):
>
> How very odd. Did you not state that morality is not the same as legal (and _should not_ be) in another thread? And yet, here you seem to be claiming that the two should coincide exactly, minus “practical” considerations. Curiouser and curiouser…

That’s different. I didn’t agree in that other thread that wiretapping was immoral. I did ASK why some other posters’ moral views should influence the law. In this thread, though, I’m pointing out that idea that prostitution is immoral is shared by people on the right and the left, and by a large segment of the population.

I would respond more, but I am afraid that doing so may cause the moderators to take the view that I was dishonest in starting this thread. So I’d prefer to keep the two discussions completely separate.

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**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2005, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prostitution-is-immoral-and-therefore-should-be-outlawed/336149/104 "2005-12-18T23:06:52Z")

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I don’t think it follows that something should be outlawed because it is immoral. I can think of many things that I believe to be immoral (such as hypocrisy, greed, pay-day loan operations) that I don’t think should be outlawed.

I think morality is a very complex topic that spans both the objective and the subjective; there are things (stealing, murder) that everyone agrees are immoral and other things (booze, gambling, pot, abortion) that aren’t quite as clear cut.

I think that prostitution falls in to the subjective category: while it’s true that people from all the political camps are for toughening prostitution laws, it doesn’t follow that a majority of people in all political camps are for toughening prostitution laws. For example, you could find “evangelicals, feminists, liberal activists and conservative human rights advocates” whose favorite color is blue, but that doesn’t mean that there’s universal agreement that blue is the best color.

Because we’re a country with such a diverse set of beliefs, I think the criteria used to determine if an act should be outlawed needs to be more complex then just “it’s immoral.” I think we also need to look at the impact the act in question has on the common good, the impact that criminalizing the act will have on those who practice it, and we should also consider if it’s possible to regulate the act without criminalizing it outright (an in doing so strike a balance between the two).

I, personally, think that prostitution is immoral. And I think that prostitution, as it currently exists in most of the United States, _does_ harm the common good, because it harms the health and well-being of poor desperate people, brings down property values, is often accompanied by other crime, etc.

But I don’t think it has to be so: I think regulated prostitution, like what exists in parts of Nevada, seems to do a pretty good job of reducing the harm prostitution does to society and the sex workers and at the same time gives people who want to participate in prostitution the legal oppurtunity to do so.

Less verbosely: Prostitution is immoral; laws making prostitution illegal are just; laws making prostitution legal but highly regulated are also just; the exact nature of prostitution laws should be up to individual locales. Nevada has it right.

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**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2005, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prostitution-is-immoral-and-therefore-should-be-outlawed/336149/105 "2005-12-18T23:08:38Z")

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> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#):
>
> Here’s what you’re missing: our system works **because of the dispute**. If you’re claiming that opinion on this subject is unanimous, then you’re clearly wrong.

No, I’m not claiming it’s unanimous - merely persuasive.

> [@](#):
>
> If you’re claiming that a majority opinion ought to hold sway, then, to some degree I agree with you–but only because nobody will let me be dictator for life, which would really be the best solution for everyone. I grudgingly accept the current system because it also keeps you from being dictator for life, which would really not be the best solution for everyone.

Well, I’d say we’re in agreement, then. The majority supports the position I’ve advanced, right?

> [@](#):
>
> If you’re claiming that, once majority opinion is established, the minority opinion needs to shut up, then I disagree with you. What constitutes the majority opinion changes, and one way it changes is that the minority opinion argues its viewpoint vociferously, rationally, and persuasively.

No. When I said there can be no discussion, I merely meant that the proposition is firmly established. Of course I welcome discussion - why else would I place a thread in GD?

> [@](#):
>
> If you’re claiming that the minority opinion has no right to call the current state of law unjust, then I disagree with you. Our current system wavers and wobbles all over the place: it doesn’t come nearly as close to true justice as my lifetime dictatorship would (I’d be a benign dictator). Often it makes mistakes; often it’s wrong; often it’s egregiously, horrifically wrong, and in such cases, the minority opinion needs to work extra-hard to change things.
> 
> These comments apply equally to whatever we’re really discussing here.

See above. Of course the minority can yell. But I’d say the argument is unassailable.

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**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2005, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prostitution-is-immoral-and-therefore-should-be-outlawed/336149/106 "2005-12-18T23:09:50Z")

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> [@Little Nemo](#):
>
> Bricker, do you believe that condoms or divorces should be made illegal? Both are violations of your religious beliefs.

I certainly believe there should be no constitutional BAR to such laws.

But I recognize that I’m in the minority on those points, so I’m content to respect the will of the majority.

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**Author:** ![Tevildo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Tevildo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tevildo)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2005, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prostitution-is-immoral-and-therefore-should-be-outlawed/336149/107 "2005-12-18T23:11:28Z")

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> [@Bricker](#):
>
> Sorry. I’d prefer we have a system of justice, informed by morality, even if it is administered by imperfect men.

This contradicts the assertion in the thread title. Do you accept that some laws may be _unjust_, even if they’re based on “morality”? Or are you using “system of justice” to mean merely “system of laws”, without considering what _justice_ is?

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**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2005, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prostitution-is-immoral-and-therefore-should-be-outlawed/336149/108 "2005-12-18T23:13:50Z")

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> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> You’ve asserted that three or four times in this thread so far without offering any argument to back it up. Care to try?

Water is wet. Everyone knows it.

Prostitution is immoral. Everyone – or at least, a strong majority of people – knows it.

What more is needed?

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**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2005, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prostitution-is-immoral-and-therefore-should-be-outlawed/336149/109 "2005-12-18T23:17:12Z")

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> [@FinnAgain](#):
>
> _Very_ well played. It’s rare to see a Whitman refrence pulled off, let alone quite so well.
> 
> Meanwhile, further down the rabbit hole, **Bricker** on morality and law:
> 
> [
> 
> [url=http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6909391&postcount=120]]([http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6909226&postcount=105](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6909226&postcount=105))
> 
> [
> 
> [url=http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6910066&postcount=147]]([http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6909709&postcount=133](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6909709&postcount=133))

I am afraid to reply in substance to this accusation, given the Moderator Sword of Damocles that for some reason this thread seems to have placed over my head.

If I could get some definitive guidance from the mods on what I can and cannot do, I’d be happy to address the point you’ve raised.

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**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2005, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prostitution-is-immoral-and-therefore-should-be-outlawed/336149/110 "2005-12-18T23:18:44Z")

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> [@Revenant Threshold](#):
>
> I disagree that prostitution, as a base factor, is immoral. A person can pay their money, in return for which they have sex with the prostitute. Where’s the immorality? Please explain it to me.

It’s just immoral. Everyone - or, more accurately, most people - feel that way. What else is needed?

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**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2005, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prostitution-is-immoral-and-therefore-should-be-outlawed/336149/111 "2005-12-18T23:20:18Z")

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> [@Bricker](#):
>
> It’s just immoral. Everyone - or, more accurately, most people - feel that way. What else is needed?

Most people feel that gay marriage is immoral–aren’t you in favor of legalizing it? Why?

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**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2005, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prostitution-is-immoral-and-therefore-should-be-outlawed/336149/112 "2005-12-18T23:20:36Z")

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> [@Bricker](#):
>
> Water is wet. Everyone knows it.
> 
> Prostitution is immoral. Everyone – or at least, a strong majority of people – knows it.
> 
> What more is needed?

Justice. If “everyone knows” that it is immoral to read a book about homosexuality, then it ain’t justice, now is it?

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**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2005, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prostitution-is-immoral-and-therefore-should-be-outlawed/336149/113 "2005-12-18T23:24:00Z")

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**Bricker** , I know that you come down on the authoritarian side of things (making an exception for the morality of gambling however, as a specific circumstance, for reasons that have never been quite clear), but clearly you recognize that one of the principles that have made this country great is that our government respects the rights of individuals to make their own choices even if they are mistakes in the minds of others? That it is precisely the tyranny of the majority that our freedoms defend against?

By your framework The Inquisition was a moral and justifiable act because it was in keeping with majority opionions about morality at that time. By your framework atheism should be illegal because most Americans are not atheists.

The question boils down to when does the State’s interest in the morality of its citizens trump the citizens’ rights to freedoms of thought and action? Down your path of Authoritarian Conservativism lies **1984** and the enforcement of right-thinking.

I’d prefer to live with others’ distasteful choices.

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**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2005, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prostitution-is-immoral-and-therefore-should-be-outlawed/336149/114 "2005-12-18T23:24:27Z")

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> [@Bricker](#):
>
> It’s just immoral. Everyone - or, more accurately, most people - feel that way. What else is needed?

You are assuming that public consensus or majority opinion can legitimately define morality. Doesn’t that go clean against the teachings of your church?

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**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2005, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prostitution-is-immoral-and-therefore-should-be-outlawed/336149/115 "2005-12-18T23:26:56Z")

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> [@tomndebb](#):
>
> While I agree that there are problems with the presentation of the OP, (particularly with regard to perceptions of statements that **Bricker** has made regarding the topic of “law and morality”), until such time as **Bricker** posts either a declaration or a clear demonstration that he is _merely_ playing devil’s advocate or that he is “really” arguing another thread, why don’t those of you who are bothered by the presentation ignore this thread?
> 
> It is entirely possible that **Bricker** is playing some game, just as it is entirely possible that some folks are so eager to be offended that they are not able to accept his actual words on the topic.
> 
> Among your choices:
> 
> - of pointing out (with citations) that **Bricker** is contradicting his own stand on issues;
> - of debating his actual assertions in this thread;
> - of ignoring the whole thing;
> - or of coming in here to express displeasure that he had the temerity to actually post the OP,  
> only the first three are relevant or even useful.  
> The fourth should be expressed in the **Pit** (unless you want to add your nme to the list of people claiming that they have inside information that he is trolling, in which case use the Report function).
> 
> That said, if **Bricker** later confesses to starting the thread for the purpose of arguing a wholly separate debate, the staff will address that at that time.
> 
> Until then, post to the debate on the table or stay out of the thread.
> 
> [/Moderator Mode]

I have a question:

Given the perception that this thread is tied to the Pit thread concerning eavesdropping, I am very concerned that addressing, in order to distinguish, my statements in that thread from my statements here may give rise to a negative inference against me and my motives with respect to this thread. Therefore, I’d like some sort of guidance before I do that.

Thanks.

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**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2005, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prostitution-is-immoral-and-therefore-should-be-outlawed/336149/116 "2005-12-18T23:27:03Z")

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> [@Bricker](#):
>
> I am afraid to reply in substance to this accusation, given the Moderator Sword of Damocles that for some reason this thread seems to have placed over my head.
> 
> If I could get some definitive guidance from the mods on what I can and cannot do, I’d be happy to address the point you’ve raised.

Stop using excuses, and defend your statement. Are you . . . .

Or do you actually not understand? They are waiting for you to turn around and use people’s replies to this thread, in another thread, then berate you, not some causeless banning for **actually** debating.

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**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2005, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prostitution-is-immoral-and-therefore-should-be-outlawed/336149/117 "2005-12-18T23:29:28Z")

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> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> Well, it’s already a crime, everywhere prostitution is illegal, even to try to do business with a prostitute; and some jurisdictions have added the “shaming” punishment of publishing the name of any john who gets caught. What more do you want?

The article I cited in the OP. I’m in favor of the measures presented there.

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**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2005, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prostitution-is-immoral-and-therefore-should-be-outlawed/336149/118 "2005-12-18T23:34:27Z")

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> [@Banquet Bear](#):
>
> Why fortunately? What bad things have happened to New Zealand since we legalised prostitution? Since I support legalised prostitution, does that make me immoral? Am I destained to go to hell?

It’s clear to me now that I don’t know enough about New Zealand to address this effectively. Accordingly, I withdraw any argument I made about New Zealand. I simply don’t know what the situation there is.

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**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2005, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prostitution-is-immoral-and-therefore-should-be-outlawed/336149/119 "2005-12-18T23:35:31Z")

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> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> :dubious: Is that law ever enforced?

Someone pled guilty to it within the past two years.

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**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\
**Post date:** [December 18, 2005, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prostitution-is-immoral-and-therefore-should-be-outlawed/336149/120 "2005-12-18T23:36:26Z")

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**Bricker** , surely you know that there are ways to argue ethics other than “here’s what most people believe” and “it’s obvious to me.” Have you never taken a philosophy course?

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