Prostitution is immoral and therefore should be outlawed

[BrainGlutton]

@Apos

But if it is illegal (and it is in most places already), then it certainly would be a good thing to target johns simply because it will probably be far far more effective to target the demand than supply in this sort of market.

Well, it’s already a crime, everywhere prostitution is illegal, even to try to do business with a prostitute; and some jurisdictions have added the “shaming” punishment of publishing the name of any john who gets caught. What more do you want?

[Banquet_Bear]

@Bricker

Prostitution is immoral.

I acknowledge an exception for extreme cases, like a women who has no way to feed herself on her children. Even then, her patrons are acting immorally, using her desperation to take advantage of her. And that exception is very narrow: most women at least here in the US have plenty of support options from society precisely to prevent her from having to make that sort of Devil’s bargain.

…what is this “Devil’s Bargain” nonsense? If a women chooses to engage in prostitution, that is her right as deemed by our government, and by extension our society. Who was the biggest driving force behind the legalization of prostitution in our country? Prostitutes themselves. Are they immoral? Do they have the right to decide what to do with their bodies or not? Are they going to hell?

New Zealand, being a relatively wealthy and advanced society, has no desperate situation that could possibly evoke an exception to the general immorality of the act.

So can you be clear here: it is moral to have sex for money in a desperate situation, but immoral if you have a relatively wealthy and advanced society. Is that what your saying?

So - yes. New Zealand has acted immorally in legalizing prostitution.

Nice try, however that doesn’t address the question I asked you. Is the New Zealand government immoral?

Fortunately, most developed nations have not fallen into this trap.

Why fortunately? What bad things have happened to New Zealand since we legalised prostitution? Since I support legalised prostitution, does that make me immoral? Am I destained to go to hell?

[Bricker]

@John Mace

OK, now you’ve introduced another variable: Practicality.

So, answer my earlier question. Should cheating on your spouse* be illegal? There’s nothing more impractical about prosecuting that crime than there is prosecuting prostitution.

I’m willing to accept that you, and the majority of Americans, believe prostitution is immoral. I also think that you, and the majority of Americans, believe cheating on your spouse is immoral. Hence, cheating on your spouse should be illegal.

*Let’s assume for the sake of this discussion that cheating on your spouse means having sex with another partner-- or, any activity with another partner that would land you in trouble with the law if you engaged in that activty with a prostitute.

In Virginia, cheating on your spouse IS illegal:

§ 18.2-365. Adultery defined; penalty.

Any person, being married, who voluntarily shall have sexual intercourse with any person not his or her spouse shall be guilty of adultery, punishable as a Class 4 misdemeanor.

I have no problem with that.

[Metacom]

I think prostitution should be illegal, but not when the hooker and John are in different countries when the act occurs.

[Bricker]

@Menocchio

Fast food working is immoral because even without enslavement, it’s coercion, drug addiciton or even needing the money drives people to do that which they would otherwise not do. It’s joyless labor that exploits people.

And of course it should be illegal. Are we an immoral country?

Nonsense.

That could be said of any job. Prostitution is not simply another job.

[John_Mace]

@tomndebb

While I agree that there are problems with the presentation of the OP, (particularly with regard to perceptions of statements that Bricker has made regarding the topic of “law and morality”), until such time as Bricker posts either a declaration or a clear demonstration that he is merely playing devil’s advocate or that he is “really” arguing another thread, why don’t those of you who are bothered by the presentation ignore this thread?

It is entirely possible that Bricker is playing some game, just as it is entirely possible that some folks are so eager to be offended that they are not able to accept his actual words on the topic.

Among your choices:

• of pointing out (with citations) that Bricker is contradicting his own stand on issues;
• of debating his actual assertions in this thread;
• of ignoring the whole thing;
• or of coming in here to express displeasure that he had the temerity to actually post the OP,
  only the first three are relevant or even useful.
  The fourth should be expressed in the Pit (unless you want to add your nme to the list of people claiming that they have inside information that he is trolling, in which case use the Report function).

That said, if Bricker later confesses to starting the thread for the purpose of arguing a wholly separate debate, the staff will address that at that time.

Until then, post to the debate on the table or stay out of the thread.

[ /Moderator Mode ]

For anyone interested in tom’s fourth option, click here.

[Bricker]

@Revtim

You said you were a practicing Catholic, aren’t you supposed to get your morals from the church, and not public opinion polls?

Well, from the teaching authority of the Church and a fully-informed conscience.

But I recognize this is not a persuasive source for much of the country, and far be it from me to suggest that religion should guide public policy. No, no - it’s simply morals that should guide public policy.

“needing the money drives women to do that which they would otherwise not do” describes a lot of people who hold any job. Should my job a couple years ago installing locks in construction sites, in the Florida summer heat, be made illegal because I only did it for the money?

And the idea that because it involves loveless sex is should be illegal is pretty amusing.

Certainly there’s a reasonable distinction to be made between prostitution and other work. Every single state except Nevada prohibits prostitution and permits installing locks in construction sites. Even in Nevada, certain counties permit construction lock installation but forbid prostitution. Were all those legislative bodies crazy?

If there was a cathouse that had well-paid well-treated unionized sex workers that could quit anytime they wanted, would that also be immoral? Or is that somehow impossible because vaginas are involved?

I concede the possibility; the reality is that so few actually exist that I don’t mind a law that forbids the tiny minority.

[BrainGlutton]

@Bricker

In Virginia, cheating on your spouse IS illegal:

I have no problem with that.

:dubious: Is that law ever enforced?

[Bricker]

@FinnAgain

But this is immaterial, as your basic premise is fatally flawed. There is no objective standard of morality in this case, as you sort of aluded to.

True. There isn’t.

So what?

Why can’t I simply argue it’s immoral anyway, without caring about a lack of an objective standard of morality?

In other words, why should the lack of an objective standard of morality be a bar to my argument?

[Bricker]

@E-Sabbath

Prostitution, like suicide, is moral. .
.
.

How’s that, Bricker?

You’re just wrong. That’s all there is to it.

[BrainGlutton]

@Bricker

But I recognize this is not a persuasive source for much of the country, and far be it from me to suggest that religion should guide public policy. No, no - it’s simply morals that should guide public policy.

Well, that’s kind of useless, isn’t it? I mean, in American culture we do, I suppose, have a consensus that there is a “morality” independent of any particular religion’s dictates – but no consensus on the content of such a morality.

[Bricker]

@Terrifel

Wait a second! All of a sudden, 31 posts into the thread, it now seems like you’re trying to discuss the issue. In your OP you claimed that it was impossible to do that. And here I tried to be supportive of your belief; I feel personally betrayed. For that matter, why even post this topic in Great Debates, instead of MPSIMS or ATMB, if you didn’t think it could be discussed?

I was mistaken. Clearly, it can be discussed.

Sorry about that.

[BrainGlutton]

@Bricker

You’re just wrong. That’s all there is to it.

:dubious: This is GD. Try to maintain some standards. Asservation is not debate.

[Bricker]

@Tevildo

Ahh, a formal argumentum ad lapidem, with a little ad populum on the side. Didn’t expect to see many of these around here.

Bricker, you’ll need to put together a better argument than that. What principles do you use to assess something as moral or immoral, and what are the details of how your assessment is applied to prostitution? “Something is immoral if I say it’s immoral” is not a position that anyone can argue against, nor is it a position that anyone who wants to have a reasonable discussion should adopt.

Oh.

Well, I must disagree with you. In just one example, in this thread, the flat statement that something is immoral seems to be enjoying some measure of support.

So I’d say you’re mistaken.

[Der_Trihs]

@Scott Plaid

This is exactly the kind of reason why I support free and equal worship of Shiva, in the fashion to which my fellows Thugees are accustomed.

As everyone knows, morality is doing what the Gods tell us to do. And my goddess, Shiva, commands me to kill Demons who have disguised themselves as rich merchants. Thus, my killing of “people” is moral. Anyone who tries to stop me is preventing the will of the gods, and thus acting in an immoral fashion. We need to outlaw such perversions of morality.

Cite. :rolleyes:

Nitpick : It’s Kali, not Shiva; even your link says so. Also, Shiva is a god, not a goddess. Be careful - you know how touchy guys are about that sort of thing.

Bricker : How is it moral to tell a woman what she can do with her body ? It’s hers, not the government’s and not the public’s. If most Americans thought it was moral to force women into prostitution, would that be moral ? Popularity and morality have little connection.

[treis]

@Bricker

Well, from the teaching authority of the Church and a fully-informed conscience.

But I recognize this is not a persuasive source for much of the country, and far be it from me to suggest that religion should guide public policy. No, no - it’s simply morals that should guide public policy.

:dubious:

Your morals come straight from your religion. There is no difference for you between religion and morality. Its dishonest for you to say that morals should guide public policy not religion becuase for you they are one and the same.

[yojimbo]

@Bricker

I’ve never posted this sort of argument before. But I’m a conservative, a practicing Catholic, a Knight of Columbus. I absolutely believe that prostitution is an immoral act. I absolutely believe that prostitution should be illegal. Why should I hide my own morality under a basket?

Now, I have other beliefs about immoral actions as well. I may post other debate threads about them later.

I look forward to your future threads about outlawing divorce and contraception.

[BrainGlutton]

Christianity is immoral. Should it be outlawed?

[Revenant_Threshold]

@Bricker

Oh.

Well, I must disagree with you. In just one example, in this thread, the flat statement that something is immoral seems to be enjoying some measure of support.

So I’d say you’re mistaken.

Aha! Is this the actual point of the OP, here? Can you not just register your displeasure in that actual thread?

[Bricker]

@mrrealtime

May he who is perfect cast the first stone.

That’s hardly an effective standard for government, is it?

SENATOR SMITH: This bill will provide penalties for sexual predators who abuse children!

SENATOR JONES: Forget it. Let he who is perfect cast the first stone!

Sorry. I’d prefer we have a system of justice, informed by morality, even if it is administered by imperfect men.