# Protecting captured US troops **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 13, 2007, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protecting-captured-us-troops/403887 "2007-05-13T01:38:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2007, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protecting-captured-us-troops/403887/1 "2007-05-13T01:38:20Z")
[… and 3 Missing in Iraq](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/13/world/middleeast/13iraq.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin) > [@](#): > > “Make no mistake,” said Maj. Gen. William B. Caldwell IV, the top American military spokesman in Iraq. “We will never stop looking for our soldiers until their status is definitively determined, and we continue to pray for their safe return.” Mysteriously, the modern Major General is silent on how the soldiers should be treated in captivity. Doubtless the captured men (and/or women) have useful information that their probably captors want. How should they expect to be managed during their captivity? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2007, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protecting-captured-us-troops/403887/2 "2007-05-13T01:45:20Z")
[QUOTE=Sevastopol] [… and 3 Missing in Iraq](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/13/world/middleeast/13iraq.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin) Mysteriously, the modern Major General is silent on how the soldiers should be treated in captivity. Doubtless the captured men (and/or women) have useful information that their probably captors want. How should they expect to be managed during their captivity? [/QUOTE] How should they _expect_ to be treated? Well, if they’ve been captured by fighters who are not in uniform, have no clear chain of command, are not signatory to any of the Geneva Conventions, then they can expect to be treated in whatever manner their captors want. It’s like asking how a police officer should expect to be treated when captured by a criminal. If they had been captured by say, the military of Iran or Turkey or Germany or Mexico, they should expect to be treated as protected POWs. But they weren’t captured by a sovereign state or even a sovereign military force, they were captured by a criminal group. It’s akin to someone being kidnapped by the mafia or the Ku Klux Klan. ---
**Author:** ![Operation\_Ripper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/34f0e0/32.png) [@Operation\_Ripper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Operation_Ripper)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2007, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protecting-captured-us-troops/403887/3 "2007-05-13T01:46:28Z")
[QUOTE=Sevastopol] [… and 3 Missing in Iraq](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/13/world/middleeast/13iraq.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin) Mysteriously, the modern Major General is silent on how the soldiers should be treated in captivity. Doubtless the captured men (and/or women) have useful information that their probably captors want. How should they expect to be managed during their captivity? [/QUOTE] Hehe, is this a serious question? They will be tortured and beheaded as is the custom of this backward culture/region, obviously. What are you expecting? ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2007, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protecting-captured-us-troops/403887/4 "2007-05-13T01:58:13Z")
[QUOTE=Operation Ripper] Hehe, is this a serious question? They will be tortured and beheaded as is the custom of this backward culture/region, obviously. What are you expecting? [/QUOTE] Waterboarding and then a golf clap from the attorney-general. So we agree completely and have the identical expectation. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2007, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protecting-captured-us-troops/403887/5 "2007-05-13T01:59:11Z")
[QUOTE=Operation Ripper] They will be tortured and beheaded as is the custom of this backward culture/region, obviously. [/QUOTE] Which differs from the way a superpower treats its prisoners, only in that we do not behead them. ---
**Author:** ![Operation\_Ripper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/34f0e0/32.png) [@Operation\_Ripper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Operation_Ripper)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2007, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protecting-captured-us-troops/403887/6 "2007-05-13T02:45:47Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] Which differs from the way a superpower treats its prisoners, only in that we do not behead them. [/QUOTE] This is not a salient point, my dear? ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2007, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protecting-captured-us-troops/403887/7 "2007-05-13T02:59:31Z")
I’m glad Major General Caldwell reminded everyone to “make no mistake.” That should clear up a lot of confusion. What sort of information could soldiers on patrol be expected to have that would be useful to insurgents? Does the military really still rely on “sign/countersign” anymore? More importantly, once U.S. soldiers have been captured, what incentives do the insurgents have to keep them alive? It seems as though the usual fate of captured troops in Iraq is to be killed later in a more controlled environment. Major General Caldwell mentions two retrieval tactics, “looking” and “praying.” Is there also a more formalized system in place, analagous to hostage negotiation? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2007, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protecting-captured-us-troops/403887/8 "2007-05-13T03:11:33Z")
[QUOTE=Operation Ripper] This is not a salient point, my dear? [/QUOTE] A rhetorical question, this is? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2007, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protecting-captured-us-troops/403887/9 "2007-05-13T03:34:11Z")
[QUOTE=Operation Ripper] Hehe, is this a serious question? They will be tortured and beheaded as is the custom of this backward culture/region, obviously. What are you expecting? [/QUOTE] It’s a seriously-asked leading question with a blunt answer undermining the attempted sanctimony - my favourite. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2007, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protecting-captured-us-troops/403887/10 "2007-05-13T03:36:17Z")
[QUOTE=Operation Ripper] This is not a salient point, my dear? [/QUOTE] It’s salient, or at least amusing, because you just implied that America is a backward region as well. Whether you meant to or not. ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2007, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protecting-captured-us-troops/403887/11 "2007-05-13T14:18:28Z")
[QUOTE=Sevastopol] Waterboarding and then a golf clap from the attorney-general. So we agree completely and have the identical expectation. [/QUOTE] I’d take that over the other anytime. A small minority of one group is mistreated… the vast majority of another group is truly tortured and beheaded. Who are the bad guys? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2007, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protecting-captured-us-troops/403887/12 "2007-05-13T14:29:19Z")
[QUOTE=What the … !!!] I’d take that over the other anytime. A small minority of one group is mistreated… the vast majority of another group is truly tortured and beheaded. Who are the bad guys? [/QUOTE] Both. Some of us have higher standards for our government. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2007, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protecting-captured-us-troops/403887/13 "2007-05-13T21:58:10Z")
[QUOTE=What the … !!!] I’d take that over the other anytime. A small minority of one group is mistreated… the vast majority of another group is truly tortured and beheaded. Who are the bad guys? [/QUOTE] “Truly” tortured ? So, are you one of those Bushites who claims that if it doesn’t involve mutilation or organ failure, it’s not torture ? We have driven people insane, among other things, you know. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2007, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protecting-captured-us-troops/403887/14 "2007-05-13T22:17:20Z")
[QUOTE=Sevastopol] Doubtless the captured men (and/or women) have useful information that their probably captors want. [/QUOTE] My guess is they’re being held for hostage value, not information value. ---
**Author:** ![dgrdfd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/eb8c5e/32.png) [@dgrdfd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dgrdfd)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2007, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protecting-captured-us-troops/403887/15 "2007-05-13T22:22:56Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] “Truly” tortured ? So, are you one of those Bushites who claims that if it doesn’t involve mutilation or organ failure, it’s not torture ? We have driven people insane, among other things, you know. [/QUOTE] Who would you rather be captured by - the United States or one of the terrorist groups currently operating in Iraq? ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2007, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protecting-captured-us-troops/403887/16 "2007-05-13T22:31:08Z")
[QUOTE=dgrdfd] Who would you rather be captured by - the United States or one of the terrorist groups currently operating in Iraq? [/QUOTE] Well as long as you’re better than Al Qaeda, then. That makes everything all right. ---
**Author:** ![dgrdfd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/eb8c5e/32.png) [@dgrdfd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dgrdfd)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2007, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protecting-captured-us-troops/403887/17 "2007-05-13T22:47:53Z")
[QUOTE=Raygun99] Well as long as you’re better than Al Qaeda, then. That makes everything all right. [/QUOTE] I didn’t say that. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2007, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protecting-captured-us-troops/403887/18 "2007-05-13T22:48:42Z")
[QUOTE=dgrdfd] Who would you rather be captured by - the United States or one of the terrorist groups currently operating in Iraq? [/QUOTE] This is one of the most specious defenses of torture–“Well, as long as we’re not as bad as they are, that’s all that matters!” And this from the same people who argue that there are absolute Rights & Wrongs and it’s those liberals that partake in “moral relativism”. :rolleyes: What does it say about the US when Iran can claim to have treated their British prisoners leagues better than we’ve treated a large percentage of ours? For the record, though, Gen. Petraeus has done what many of his colleagues and higher-ups have not–[come out unequivocally against torture](http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/05/petraeus_comes_.html) (and addressing the troops directly in this position). > [@](#): > > Our values and the laws governing warfare teach us to respect human dignity, maintain our integrity, and do what is right. Adherence to our values distinguishes us from our enemy. This fight depends on securing the population, which must understand that we—not our enemies—occupy the moral high ground. This strategy has shown results in recent months. Al Qaeda’s indiscriminate attacks, for example, have finally started to turn a substantial portion of the Iraqi population against it. > > In view of this, I was concerned by the results of a recently released survey conducted last fall in Iraq that revealed an apparent unwillingness on the part of some US personnel to report illegal actions taken by fellow members of their units. The study also indicated that a small percentage of those surveyed may have mistreated noncombatants. This survey should spur reflection on our conduct in combat… > > Some may argue that we would be more effective if we sanctioned torture or other expedient methods to obtain information from the enemy. They would be wrong. Beyond the basic fact that such actions are illegal, history shows that they also are frequently neither useful nor necessary. Certainly, extreme physical action can make someone “talk”; however, what the individual says may be of questionable value. In fact our experience in applying the interrogation standards laid out in the Army Field Manual (2-22.3) on Human Intelligence Collector Operations that was published last year shows that the techniques in the manual work effectively and humanely in eliciting information from detainees. > > We are, indeed, warriors. We train to kill our enemies. We are engaged in combat, we must pursue the enemy relentlessly, and we must be violent at times. What sets us apart from our enemies in this fight, however, is how we behave. In everything we do, we must observe the standards and values that dictate that we treat noncombatants and detainees with dignity and respect. While we are warriors, we are also all human beings. Stress caused by lengthy deployments and combat is not a sign of weakness; it is a sign that we are human. If you feel such stress, do not hesitate to talk to your chain of command, your chaplain, or a medical expert. Needless to say, all the neocons who’ve slandered the anti-torture crusaders as “weak” or “treasonous” or “anti-soldier” are particularly quiet about it now. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2007, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protecting-captured-us-troops/403887/19 "2007-05-13T22:58:52Z")
[QUOTE=dgrdfd] I didn’t say that. [/QUOTE] It sound like it to me, too. What did you mean? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2007, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protecting-captured-us-troops/403887/20 "2007-05-13T23:04:32Z")
[QUOTE=ArchiveGuy] Needless to say, all the neocons who’ve slandered the anti-torture crusaders as “weak” or “treasonous” or “anti-soldier” are particularly quiet about it now. [/QUOTE] Especially since it’s becoming more and more evident that the neocons are the treasonous ones in the US. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protecting-captured-us-troops/403887.md?page=2)