I think that’s stupid If all someone ever does in response to anything you post is to say “that’s stupid”, without addressing the substance of what you wrote and explaining why, at the very least that’s dismissive and patronizing. I think it’s barely less insulting than just calling you stupid outright. I’d much prefer someone just call me stupid outright if that’s how they feel, provided it’s a preamble to discussing what made them feel that way - by discussing the issues I wrote about and explaining why they disagree.
In other words - I think what’s important is whether someone actually addresses the issues and adds to the debate, not whether they use a superficial form of words that purports to do so but is free of all content other than a thinly-veiled implication of stupidity.
I tend to agree that the “attack the post, not the poster” rule is a little wibbly wobbly for my tastes, but that’s what mods are for.
The rules in GD are the rules closest to the manners we would observe among friendly acquaintances in a real-world setting. You wouldn’t drop a turd in the middle of a lively but genial conversation by saying that an argument is stupid.
“Oh no,” says I. “I’m just making an observation. An observation that the argument you’re crafting is dumb. Not you. I’m sure you’re not dumb at all. But the words coming out of your mouth? Those are stupid as hell. And since factual observations can’t be insults, we’re all goo- hey, where are you going? Hey, bring your delightful personality and moronic fucking arguments back over here!”
I mostly agree. If you can show the post is idiotic, just do so without calling it idiotic. That’s what cites and links are for. Show, don’t tell. Much more effective.
Let’s take this to the real world for a moment. Your boss calls a meeting of all employees. Maybe his boss is there. All your colleagues and work friends are there. The boss asks your opinion on something. You give him your opinion. He says “DMC, that’s an idiotic suggestion. Next!” That wouldn’t bother you? You don’t think your work friends would be embarrassed for you? Maybe even a little angry that you got called out? And maybe colleagues that don’t particularly like you are laughing at you a bit, their opinion of you having been confirmed by the boss?
Even the rule, “attack the post, not the poster” is badly worded. There is no reason to allow attacks on anything outside the Pit. We’re told attacks are what the Pit is for.
If that happened, it would probably be because I made an idiotic suggestion. My boss is not stupid, so it’s likely that it was warranted were it to occur.
Not that it really matters as this is a message board. I’m pretty sure I can find instances where someone stated a post of mine was stupid. I would then likely find one of two things to be true:
The poster in question was correct and my post was absolutely stupid.
The poster in question is barely able to muster up the necessary brain cells to wipe themselves and no one will take seriously anything they have to say.
I’m very careful to limit my attacks to posts, not posters, and happily accept any penalties when I cross that line. On the other hand, I don’t think we need to hold hands and sing Kum Ba Yah outside of the pit. Hell, you’ve attacked a mod (the person, not the post) in this very forum, so I’m not sure you should feel comfortable on that horse up there.
If so, you are a very small part of the population. People in general don’t like to have their thoughts called idiotic in public in front of friends and coworkers. Especially when there is no need to. Your boss could just as easily have explained why your idea was a bad one rather than bring up the word idiotic. Unfortunately, many people just can’t resist the insult. And it is an insult no matter what fig leaf you put on it.
Nobody has asked for any hand holding or singing so I don’t know why you posted that. Your post is actually a pretty idiotic comparison to what’s being talked about. All people are asking is to have no insults mean no insults. Not no insults unless you can cover it with a polite fiction that phrasing an insult in a certain way makes it not an insult.
If you are sincere about seeing “your post is idiotic” as an insult and not wanting if to be acceptable, calling another poster’s post idiotic isn’t a great way to demonstrate it…
I absolutely don’t want it to be acceptable. However, rules changes around here are few and far between so I don’t expect it to change, no matter what I do. If the rule would actually change, I would totally support it.
I followed the rules that DMC is favor of, just like I rephrased the OP’s statement earlier so it was acceptable according to the rules, but to me was still an insult. It was to reinforce my point that I consider the silliness that changing a “you” to a “your post” makes something any less of an insult. But, dems da rules.
The whole point of the rules is to have civilized discussion on this board, and prevent arguments from degenerating into an exchange of personal insults.
So yes, politeness matters. The phrasing matters. The exact way we frame a response to something we consider stupid matters.
Attacking the post is less inflammatory than attacking the poster directly and personally. Sure, indirect or more subtle insults are possible, but the aim is to avoid provoking emotions to the point where the discussion goes downhill and gets out of control.
The rules are not about splitting hairs, but about being reasonably polite to other posters, even those we consider stupid.
Yeah, the amount of digital ink spilled in ATMB about trying to find ways to barely skirt the rules is baffling to me. I find it easier to have good faith discussions in GD and P&E rather than to work to find the most subtle way to insult someone while barely staying on this side of the line.
Would you consider any of the following to be insults?
This is why I said you are ranting about a non-problem. This is approaching Qanon territory.
And, please use some more giant memes from tv shows to bolster your argument. I know that always tips the scales for me.
Honestly, if you think this platform is making it hard for people to post maybe the internets aren’t for you.
I think the first two are attacks of the posts and the third is an attack of the poster. I don’t really see a difference between “This is approaching Qanon territory” and “This is stupid”, but that’s probably just me.
That said, remember when I noted that it mattered to me where the criticism comes from?
I’ve always considered MrDibble one of the better posters here, one who gets far more shit than is warranted in almost all situations. So, I’ll definitely try to tone it down somewhat when calling someone’s post stupid. Might not always succeed, but will put more effort into it.
I’d say the first and last are attacks on the poster - the first uses too-personalized language - not the Q-anon bit, the “You are ranting” bit. “That is a rant worthy of Q-anon” would be a non-personal way of saying the same thing, IMO.
blush
To be fair, I’ve crossed the attack the poster line far more than I should’ve, too. Nowadays, I’m trying to be more likely to just tell someone I’m not responding to them, or else just drop out of a thread entirely when it looks like getting personal, like that secular Xmas one. Life’s too short.
I agree with this analysis. I’d also say that the first is a pretty weak attack on the post. So what if Q-anon would say it. They probably say SOME true things. The second is also weak, and is really arguing the style of debate rather than the content, and fails to say what you DO want. Better to say, “can you actually support that argument? Memes can be funny, but they rarely have much content.” Or something like that.
Assuming outside the Pit: One and three are insults, especially three. Number two is sarcasm, which can be insulting but isn’t in this case. Of course, I may be a bit biased on the sarcasm about memes as I dislike them enough to have turned off gifs here just to avoid those posts. Posting a meme in response to a post is below most puns in humor value.
It’s good that you have a poster you aspire to be like. I wish you success in your effort, it will help make the board a more welcoming place.
You are most welcome! Twenty plus years of Czarcasm is quite the accomplishment. It’s a very difficult skill to master.
And? I don’t claim I’ve never insulted anyone, both of us know I have. What’s being discussed in this thread, at least by me, is people insulting people using the post/poster rule, and denying it’s an insult.
I’ll tell you what. Since you’ve already done the work, why don’t you post links to those posts so I can see the context. If I drew a note or a warning or just think it crossed the line, I will apologize to that person in this thread and in a PM. I’m one of those people that doesn’t mind apologizing when I’m in the wrong.
If all someone ever does in response to anything you post is to say “that’s stupid”, without addressing the substance of what you wrote and explaining why, at the very least that’s dismissive and patronizing. I think it’s barely less insulting than just calling you stupid outright. I’d much prefer someone just call me stupid outright if that’s how they feel, provided it’s a preamble to discussing what made them feel that way - by discussing the issues I wrote about and explaining why they disagree.