# Protests in Muriretta California. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 3, 2014, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protests-in-muriretta-california/692262 "2014-07-03T11:41:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protests-in-muriretta-california/692262/41 "2014-07-08T09:06:28Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > You so rarely hear about them immigrating to the US because they can’t get through Mexico. I don’t know about Panama (paging **Colibri** ), but both Costa Rica and Belize are inmigration recipients; I wouldn’t be surprised if Panama is as well. That doesn’t mean nobody wants to move to The Land Of Golden Sidewalks, but a lot of people figure out that it’s not worth it. Some of these are aided by the stories from those who lived there for a while and went back home, a setup which is a lot less common for less-stable countries. ---
**Author:** ![Emiliana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@Emiliana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emiliana)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protests-in-muriretta-california/692262/42 "2014-07-08T12:04:07Z")
Central Americans can certainly travel through Mexico to get to the United States. It’s just hellishly dangerous to do so, especially for women and children. The migrants are mainly from Guatemala, El Salvador, and Honduras, and they are fleeing widespread gang violence as well as poverty. Costa Rica and Panama have plenty of the latter, not so much of the former. ---
**Author:** ![WWhiskey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@WWhiskey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WWhiskey)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protests-in-muriretta-california/692262/43 "2014-07-08T13:29:13Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Hyuk hyuk hyuk. You should see a doctor! ---
**Author:** ![LibrarySpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f9ae1b/32.png) [@LibrarySpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LibrarySpy)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protests-in-muriretta-california/692262/44 "2014-07-08T13:59:37Z")
To piggyback **Crazyhorse** ’s cite, [relevant This American Life podcast](http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/498/the-one-thing-youre-not-supposed-to-do). Plenty of legal and illegal immigrants are being held in federal detention/deportation centers all over the country, for months at a time. Sounds like ICE is trying a different solution, both to address human rights concerns and to alleviate overcrowding. Putting people in camps is not kosher. Like it or not, most of these people are NOT going to be deported. And yet, I still can’t muster any sympathy for the protesters in Murireta. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protests-in-muriretta-california/692262/45 "2014-07-08T14:26:19Z")
> [@bup](#): > > Do you, and defensibly, take the position that unfettered illegal immigration attempts should be stopped . . . Irrelevant question unless they **can** be stopped, which they can’t. I hope we’ve all learned that by now. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protests-in-muriretta-california/692262/46 "2014-07-08T14:49:35Z")
> [@WWhiskey](#): > > You should see a doctor! My land, sir, but you _are_ a caution! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protests-in-muriretta-california/692262/47 "2014-07-08T15:01:08Z")
> [@WWhiskey](#): > > I just haven’t yet figured out why we don’t just try to annex Mexico ? That was seriously considered at the end of the Mexican-American War. [url=]However: > [@](#): > > This was a controversial proposition for two reasons. First, idealistic advocates of manifest destiny like John L. O’Sullivan had always maintained that the laws of the United States should not be imposed on people against their will. The annexation of “All Mexico” would be a violation of this principle. And secondly, the annexation of Mexico was controversial because it would mean extending U.S. citizenship to millions of Mexicans. Senator John C. Calhoun of South Carolina, who had approved of the annexation of Texas, was opposed to the annexation of Mexico, as well as the “mission” aspect of manifest destiny, for racial reasons. He made these views clear in a speech to Congress on January 4, 1848: > > > [@](#): > > > > We have never dreamt of incorporating into our Union any but the Caucasian race—the free white race. To incorporate Mexico, would be the very first instance of the kind, of incorporating an Indian race; for more than half of the Mexicans are Indians, and the other is composed chiefly of mixed tribes. I protest against such a union as that! Ours, sir, is the Government of a white race… We are anxious to force free government on all; and I see that it has been urged … that it is the mission of this country to spread civil and religious liberty over all the world, and especially over this continent. It is a great mistake.[46] > > This debate brought to the forefront one of the contradictions of manifest destiny: on the one hand, while identitarian ideas inherent in manifest destiny suggested that Mexicans, as non-whites, would present a threat to white racial integrity and thus were not qualified to become Americans, the “mission” component of manifest destiny suggested that Mexicans would be improved (or “regenerated”, as it was then described) by bringing them into American democracy. Identitarianism was used to promote manifest destiny, but, as in the case of Calhoun and the resistance to the “All Mexico” movement, identitarianism was also used to oppose manifest destiny.[47] Conversely, proponents of annexation of “All Mexico” regarded it as an anti-slavery measure.[48] ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protests-in-muriretta-california/692262/48 "2014-07-08T15:02:00Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Look, I’ve been to Mexico… Quiet down, folks! We’ve got an expert here! ---
**Author:** ![Emiliana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@Emiliana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emiliana)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protests-in-muriretta-california/692262/49 "2014-07-08T15:17:29Z")
The U.S. did, of course, annex a good half of Mexico. ---
**Author:** ![Kimballkid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b5a626/32.png) [@Kimballkid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimballkid)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protests-in-muriretta-california/692262/50 "2014-07-08T15:17:29Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Hyuk hyuk hyuk. > [@WWhiskey](#): > > You should see a doctor! Or a vet. Sounds like he has a hairball. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![WWhiskey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f9ae1b/32.png) [@WWhiskey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WWhiskey)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protests-in-muriretta-california/692262/51 "2014-07-08T16:29:30Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > That was seriously considered at the end of the Mexican-American War. [url=]However: thank you for that excellent post! ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protests-in-muriretta-california/692262/52 "2014-07-08T19:35:31Z")
> [@Emiliana](#): > > Central Americans can certainly travel through Mexico to get to the United States. It’s just hellishly dangerous to do so, especially for women and children. > > The migrants are mainly from Guatemala, El Salvador, and Honduras, and they are fleeing widespread gang violence as well as poverty. Costa Rica and Panama have plenty of the latter, not so much of the former. And we dont have poverty and gang violence here? Arent there many people in the US already who if they had a choice would pick up and move? Sorry but the US accepting hundreds of thousands of refugees from those places is NOT going to help anyone. Many times they bring those problems here with them. I’ve been reading many reports of known gang members infiltrating with the other refugees. No, what we need right now is to bus them to the airports and fly them home. Its cheaper in the long run than keeping them here and those still at home will get the message and not try and come. Maybe they will also work to improve their own countries conditions. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2014, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protests-in-muriretta-california/692262/53 "2014-07-09T03:38:53Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > And we dont have poverty and gang violence here? Yes, but it’s not what’s on the package. The package says “opportunity… land of the free… TV series where blue-collar families live in houses where every person has his own bedroom and bathroom and there’s even extra guest rooms…” ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2014, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protests-in-muriretta-california/692262/54 "2014-07-09T06:20:34Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Yes, but it’s not what’s on the package. The package says “opportunity… land of the free… TV series where blue-collar families live in houses where every person has his own bedroom and bathroom and there’s even extra guest rooms…” The fine print on the package says “A land of lazy people who got rich hiring immigrants to do their hard jobs so they could focus on education, arts and sciences. Qualified candidates will be willing to work their assess off, accept wages our average citizen would scoff at and receive no other benefits. Must be able to work well in an environment of racial discrimination, lynch mob mentality and general intolerance from those who were too stupid to take advantage of their access to education, arts, and sciences. Some travel required.” ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2014, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protests-in-muriretta-california/692262/55 "2014-07-09T06:26:33Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > For how long? From what I’ve read is they are given a summons to appear in co8rt at a later date but are then sent away. And almost 90% dont show for their hearings. > > So yes, eventually they are dumped on the community. > [@Crazyhorse](#): > > Fox News a lot, bro? > > That factoid should be “90% \*do \*show up for their hearings” > > [Fox News Uses Supervised Release Of Undocumented Immigrants To Hype Fears Of Increased Crime](http://mediamatters.org/research/2013/02/27/fox-news-uses-supervised-release-of-undocumente/192824) Apples and oranges. **Urbanredneck** seems to be referring to all persons released with a court date for a detention hearing. **Crazyhorse** replies with a statistic about a subset of that group - those placed on an alternative to detention program. Most are not released to an [alternative to detention (ATD) program](http://immigrationimpact.com/2012/07/11/for-immigrants-alternatives-to-detention-not-all-theyre-cracked-up-to-be/) such as posting bail or electronic monitoring. > [@linked article](#): > > At present, the government runs three main ATD programs. The first, release on recognizance (ROR), is available to immigrants currently in removal proceedings and deemed eligible to post bond. The second, orders of supervision (OSUP), applies to immigrants with final removal orders who cannot be returned to their home countries. The third, the Intensive Supervision Appearance Program (ISAP), is available to both groups of immigrants—but only in selected jurisdictions—and often requires participants to wear electronic ankle monitors. - See more at: [For Immigrants, Alternatives to Detention Not All They’re Cracked Up to Be](http://immigrationimpact.com/2012/07/11/for-immigrants-alternatives-to-detention-not-all-theyre-cracked-up-to-be/#sthash.J3wFJ63n.dpuf) Requiring a person to post a bond, make regular check ins, or wear an electronic monitor does greatly increase compliance rates for attending deportation hearings. [Two statistics are often used](http://cis.org/deportation-basics), and it is important to understand the distinction. If you compare those who fail to show for a deportation hearing against all illegal immigrants in the United States then there is only about a 5% absconder rate. But if you compare those who fail to show for a deportation hearing against all illegal immigrants actually in deportation hearings then the rate is much higher - about 59%. Of course the vast majority of illegal immigrants in the United States are not currently in removal proceedings. So 90% isn’t the right statistic for absconding, but it isn’t right for attending the hearings either if you look at all those detained and released and not just those in ATD programs. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2014, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protests-in-muriretta-california/692262/56 "2014-07-09T06:31:43Z")
> [@WWhiskey](#): > > I just haven’t yet figured out why we don’t just try to annex Mexico ? We couldn’t handle occupying Iraq; what makes you think we could occupy a much larger nation like Mexico? ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2014, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protests-in-muriretta-california/692262/57 "2014-07-09T07:23:21Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > We couldn’t handle occupying Iraq; what makes you think we could occupy a much larger nation like Mexico? It’s a much easier commute. ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2014, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protests-in-muriretta-california/692262/58 "2014-07-09T07:47:34Z")
> [@Iggy](#): > > So 90% isn’t the right statistic for absconding, but it isn’t right for attending the hearings either if you look at all those detained and released and not just those in ATD programs. The only ones who will be detained or put in the ATD program are those deemed to be a flight risk or who have criminal backgrounds in the first place. Many are children who can be placed with family in the US to await their proceedings. Their family will almost certainly not be near the processing center they are being taken to, so even if 99% of them failed to appear they won’t be “let loose” in the community that is protesting their arrival. Sure, some of those sent off to family in the US might still fail to appear but if so they will be among those who have no criminal backgrounds and some form of family/support system available to them within the US. If and when they ever decide to apply for residence or asylum or take advantage of an amnesty or work program their failure to appear will be an obstacle. Other than that what’s the problem? Not much to be done about it either way but my guess is the women and children who are released to family legally residing in the US are probably no cause for Urbanredneck-like folks to panic. Once inside the US, by simply being human beings they have gained inalienable rights. Those include the right to due process for criminal matters and immigration matters. We have bail/bonds in our criminal justice system because the jails could not possibly hold everyone awaiting trial if they pose no immediate risk to society. Some of them fail to appear too. A bus full of immigrants has a bus full of rights and the ICE facilities could not possibly hold everyone awaiting their day in court when they pose no immediate risk to society. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2014, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protests-in-muriretta-california/692262/59 "2014-07-09T10:49:11Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > … > Once inside the US, by simply being human beings they have gained inalienable rights. Those include the right to **due process for criminal matters and immigration matters.** We have bail/bonds in our criminal justice system because the jails could not possibly hold everyone awaiting trial if they pose no immediate risk to society. Some of them fail to appear too. A bus full of immigrants has a bus full of rights and the ICE facilities could not possibly hold everyone **awaiting their day in court** when they pose no immediate risk to society. Criminal matters, yes. Immigration matters… well… maybe not. Illegal immigrants can often be removed without a hearing at all. There is a [voluntary departure](http://www.uscis.gov/tools/glossary/voluntary-departure) process that [critics argue is not very voluntary](http://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/newsroom/release/legal-action-center-files-suit-against-dhs-failure-disclose-records-voluntary-retur) but which may involve an appearance before an immigration judge. And there is an [expedited removal](http://www.justice.gov/eoir/probono/Expedited%20Removal%20-%20English%20%2817%29.pdf) process that leaves a black mark on the person’s immigration record and denies them a hearing. Fewer than a quarter of deportees see a judge. > [@linked article](#): > > The DHS officer’s decision is final and generally there is no right to speak with an Immigration Judge. In addition, expedited removal may be used for two groups of individuals encountered within the United States: (1) individuals who arrived by sea and were encountered within two years, and (2) individuals who are encountered within 100 miles of an international land border and within 14 days of entering the country. Illegal immigrants [do not have the right to an attorney](http://cis.org/feere/detained-immigrants-and-right-counsel) to represent them at a removal hearing if they cannot afford one themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Emiliana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@Emiliana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emiliana)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2014, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protests-in-muriretta-california/692262/60 "2014-07-09T11:24:09Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > And we dont have poverty and gang violence here? Arent there many people in the US already who if they had a choice would pick up and move? Gang violence in El Salvador, Honduras, and Guatemala is far, far worse than anything encountered in the United States. El Salvador and Honduras routinely compete for highest per capita murder rate in the world. Migrants aren’t irrational. They wouldn’t undertake an extremely hazardous and expensive journey facing uncertain prospects in the U.S. if they weren’t desperate. In any case, I wasn’t advocating for any particular policy response. I was responding to a post about differential migration rates from Central American countries. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protests-in-muriretta-california/692262.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protests-in-muriretta-california/692262.md?page=4)