# Protocol question **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 19, 2005, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248 "2005-03-19T01:09:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![mattmorgan64](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@mattmorgan64](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mattmorgan64)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/121 "2005-03-19T04:38:16Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > Uh, yes you do. Do you claim the songs you download on your tax form? WHo the hell do you think makes it illegal to download music without paying for it - the record companies? Maybe you should bone up on who passes laws in this country. > > Anyway, your appeals to authority - i.e., your apparent wish to fellate “the state”, as if it’s the end-all of morality - is just another way for you not to have to think for yourself. Not everything that’s illegal is by default immoral. Personally, I don’t give a shit if she’s considering divorce to help her ailing husband financially, nor do I mind paying for it, or for that matter paying for universal health care - fuck knows my taxes go to far less worthwhile and humane pursuits. Maybe you should look into how exactly your beloved “state” is spending your money and you might not end up sounding like such a knee-jerk bureaucratic apologist. Nocturne, I’m really doing my best. Please respond quickly so thatthe topic doesn’t derail into insults. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/122 "2005-03-19T04:39:29Z")
> [@mattmorgan64](#): > > why is it OK to fake a divorce ot get benefits? How do you “fake” a divorce, anyway? Either the marriage contract is terminated or it isn’t. Since most of the fifty states allow no-fault divorce, how much “fakery” do you think is required? Ya great flaming asshole, you. ---
**Author:** ![mattmorgan64](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@mattmorgan64](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mattmorgan64)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/123 "2005-03-19T04:41:58Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > How do you “fake” a divorce, anyway? Either the marriage contract is terminated or it isn’t. Since most of the fifty states allow no-fault divorce, how much “fakery” do you think is required? > > Ya great flaming asshole, you. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz… ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/124 "2005-03-19T04:42:39Z")
> [@mattmorgan64](#): > > More things that have nothing to do with the original point thrown out for the crowd to feed on. > > You (and your crowd of cronies) are sad. Nice dodge. I asked you a question-would lying in that case be wrong? Yes or no. ---
**Author:** ![mattmorgan64](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@mattmorgan64](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mattmorgan64)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/125 "2005-03-19T04:43:18Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Nice dodge. I asked you a question-would lying in that case be wrong? Yes or no. Dodge? Lying is always wrong. ---
**Author:** ![FaerieBeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e95f7d/32.png) [@FaerieBeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FaerieBeth)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/126 "2005-03-19T04:46:26Z")
> [@mattmorgan64](#): > > Dodge? > > Lying is always wrong. Okay, now what about stealing? Is stealing wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/127 "2005-03-19T04:47:50Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Nice dodge. I asked you a question-would lying in that case be wrong? Yes or no. **Matt,** Answer **Guin’s** (simple) question. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/128 "2005-03-19T04:48:19Z")
> [@mattmorgan64](#): > > Nocturne, > > I’m really doing my best. > > Please respond quickly so thatthe topic doesn’t derail into insults. > > Thank you. Then explain how downloading songs doesn’t equate to stealing or lying, you stupid monkey bitch. ---
**Author:** ![mattmorgan64](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@mattmorgan64](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mattmorgan64)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/129 "2005-03-19T04:48:42Z")
> [@FaerieBeth](#): > > Okay, now what about stealing? Is stealing wrong? Look folks, much as I’m tempted to jump into your pool of things that have nothing to do with anything, I cannot. You see, I made a promise to nocturne not to. So I will wait for 5 more minutes for nocturne to respond, and then we can all discuss all the things that have nothing to do with what I asked in the first place. Starting… NOW. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/130 "2005-03-19T04:49:52Z")
> [@mattmorgan64](#): > > Look folks, much as I’m tempted to jump into your pool of things that have nothing to do with anything, I cannot. > > You see, I made a promise to nocturne not to. > > So I will wait for 5 more minutes for nocturne to respond, and then we can all discuss all the things that have nothing to do with what I asked in the first place. > > Starting… > NOW. Fucking pussy. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/131 "2005-03-19T04:50:23Z")
> [@mattmorgan64](#): > > Dodge? > > Lying is always wrong. Sorry about the simulpost. So you would not lie to spare your mother horrible suffering **Before Her Time?** You would not lie to **Save Another Human Life?** Liar. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/132 "2005-03-19T04:50:24Z")
> [@mattmorgan64](#): > > Dodge? > > Lying is always wrong. Okay. So turning lying to the Gestapo in order to save innocent children and stealing bread to feed your starving family is wrong. But…stealing music is okay. Is that what you’ve said so far? I just want to be clear on this. :wally ---
**Author:** ![Nocturne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9fc348/32.png) [@Nocturne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nocturne)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/133 "2005-03-19T04:50:49Z")
> [@mattmorgan64](#): > > 1. A and B are married. > 2. B gets sick. > 3. A can’t support A & B alone. > 4. A gets a divorce from B to get the benefits that will enable A to support A & B together. > > My position is getting a ‘divorce’ to obtain benefits, while not really ‘divorcing’ is a lie. Okay, first of all I’m a girl, not a chap, but we can overlook that. 😉 I think I see your point, but this is where it may fail: Marriage offers certain benefits to two people. In the eyes of the state, which I think we’re talking about here, marriage is a legal contract and no more. You can choose to make it about love, or money, or giraffes, but it confers only certain legal aspects on the people involved. Unfortunately, it can also involve pitfalls like the situation we’re discussing. Two people can live together and not be considered married. I lived with my roommate for two years. I helped her a great deal financially and emotionally, but we were not married, nor were we a couple. We had no legal rights or responsibilities like those of spouses. Also consider that sometimes people get divorced and still love each other–they just cannot be married for whatever reason. That’s not illegal. Nor is it illegal to live with someone you love and not marry them. So if they get a real by-god divorce, and their rights are gone, I don’t see how they can be lying. You don’t have to be married to someone to love them, and divorce is perfectly legal. Please try to understand that some of these people at least might want to have an actual, non-vitriolic discussion of the issue. I know when I get mad it’s hard not to toss insults back, but I think a more edifying approach would be to calmly discuss the issues (or as calmly as one can do in a Pit thread–I know I’m not always the perfect example of controlled rationality here). ---
**Author:** ![FaerieBeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e95f7d/32.png) [@FaerieBeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FaerieBeth)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/134 "2005-03-19T04:51:45Z")
> [@mattmorgan64](#): > > You see, I made a promise to nocturne not to. I’m willing to bet the pope’s very attractive hat that **Nocturne** won’t count it as a breach of promise if you answer the question regarding whether or not stealing is wrong. You see, it has _everything_ to do with the original post because it relates directly to your credibility. ---
**Author:** ![TwoTrouts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a9adbd/32.png) [@TwoTrouts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwoTrouts)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/135 "2005-03-19T04:53:57Z")
> [@mattmorgan64](#): > > Lying is always wrong. You accussed me of bieng a “blue-stater”. Fair enough., I assume that means that you are a “red-stater” and support the current administration. Off topic, I know, but… how do you support the lies coming from this administration? Or any, for that matter? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/136 "2005-03-19T04:57:58Z")
> [@mattmorgan64](#): > > Please respond quickly so thatthe topic doesn’t derail into insults. This train was _built_ derailed, GFA. It was a shoddy act of assembly, put together by illiterate factory workers, half of whom were drunk and the other half hung over from being recently drunk, led by a foreman who was distracted by his raging diarrhea and the six venereal diseases he picked up from his underage prostitute/stripper girlfriend. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/137 "2005-03-19T05:00:49Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > You are correct. > > But neither you, nor our esteemed OP, has yet demonstrated, with a citation to appropriate sources, that **AuGratin** ’s hypothetical plan would have constituted benfit fraud. > > I’m not saying that it would, or that it wouldn’t. I’m only saying that it will take more than your and **mattmorgan** ’s unsupported assertions to convince me. For any government benefit, there are qualifying criteria. Rightly or wrongly, they are based on a wide variety of things, such as marital status, family income, age, veteran status, minority status, whatever. If someone circumvents the law to appear married, and gain those benefits, that’s illegal, and wrong. But, if someone else circumvents the law to appear divorced, and gain those benefits, that’s OK with you? Hint: The benefit in question is apparently based on “family” income. As a married couple, **AuGratin** and her husband apparently qualify for ‘X’ level of benefits. But if they got divorced, and **AuGratin’s** husband was again single, as a severely disabled person, his “family” income level is presumably zero, so his benefits are ‘X’ plus more, probably by a lot. Should she get a sham divorce to get more benefits for her husband? Anymore than someone else would get a sham marriage to get more benefits? Maybe. But it doesn’t seem honorable, or legal, to me. IMHO. IANAL. ---
**Author:** ![mattmorgan64](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@mattmorgan64](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mattmorgan64)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/138 "2005-03-19T05:01:09Z")
> [@Nocturne](#): > > Okay, first of all I’m a girl, not a chap, but we can overlook that. 😉 > > I think I see your point, but this is where it may fail: > > Marriage offers certain benefits to two people. In the eyes of the state, which I think we’re talking about here, marriage is a legal contract and no more. You can choose to make it about love, or money, or giraffes, but it confers only certain legal aspects on the people involved. Unfortunately, it can also involve pitfalls like the situation we’re discussing. > > Two people can live together and not be considered married. I lived with my roommate for two years. I helped her a great deal financially and emotionally, but we were not married, nor were we a couple. We had no legal rights or responsibilities like those of spouses. Also consider that sometimes people get divorced and still love each other–they just cannot be married for whatever reason. That’s not illegal. Nor is it illegal to live with someone you love and not marry them. > > So if they get a real by-god divorce, and their rights are gone, I don’t see how they can be lying. You don’t have to be married to someone to love them, and divorce is perfectly legal. > > Please try to understand that some of these people at least might want to have an actual, non-vitriolic discussion of the issue. I know when I get mad it’s hard not to toss insults back, but I think a more edifying approach would be to calmly discuss the issues (or as calmly as one can do in a Pit thread–I know I’m not always the perfect example of controlled rationality here). Nocturne - I agree with all you have said. But there is a problem. Let me ask you this question: If B never got sick, would A have filed for a divorce from B? In this case, the answer is clearly NO, as A has stated she is only exploring the possibility of divorcing so that B can get the benefits he would have had he not been married to A. A has clearly stated she loves B. A feels pain for B. A is a good loving wife, and B is a good loving husband. Therefore, why get a divorce in the first place? And, if you decide to get a divorce, what is the reason (screwed up CA laws about no fault/no reason excluded, PLEASE. And Nocturne, if you wish me to explain why I want the reason for the divorce to be honest, I will state it, if YOU ask). Patiently awaiting your response as I ignore the taunting, Matt. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/139 "2005-03-19T05:03:18Z")
> [@Nocturne](#): > > You can choose to make it about love, or money, or giraffes Now wait just a cotton pickin’ minute! That entire episode with the giraffe was _her_ idea, not mine! It’s not what our marriage was about any more than the gerbils were. Sheesh! Some people. One little moment of weakness with _Giraffa camelopardalis tippelskirchi_ and you’re labelled for life. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![mattmorgan64](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@mattmorgan64](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mattmorgan64)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/140 "2005-03-19T05:03:32Z")
> [@TwoTrouts](#): > > You accussed me of bieng a “blue-stater”. Fair enough., I assume that means that you are a “red-stater” and support the current administration. Off topic, I know, but… how do you support the lies coming from this administration? Or any, for that matter? 2, I want to have this discussion with you, I really do. But I can’t now, as I must spend the night dissecting what is considered a lie, and what is not. This is not to mention the heckles thrown in from this Bryan fellow who clearly is off his meds. So, please… another time, yes? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248.md?page=8)