# Protocol question **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 19, 2005, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248 "2005-03-19T01:09:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/141 "2005-03-19T05:04:23Z")
> [@mattmorgan64](#): > > Nocturne - > > I agree with all you have said. > > But there is a problem. > > Let me ask you this question: > > If B never got sick, would A have filed for a divorce from B? > > In this case, the answer is clearly NO, as A has stated she is only exploring the possibility of divorcing so that B can get the benefits he would have had he not been married to A. A has clearly stated she loves B. A feels pain for B. A is a good loving wife, and B is a good loving husband. > > Therefore, why get a divorce in the first place? Because caring for a loved one trumps lying to the state. ---
**Author:** ![mattmorgan64](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@mattmorgan64](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mattmorgan64)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/142 "2005-03-19T05:09:26Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > Because caring for a loved one trumps lying to the state. Really? It didn’t trump telling the truth to the state when the marriage was created. Oh, but wait! We didn’t want anything from the state them did we? ---
**Author:** ![Nocturne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9fc348/32.png) [@Nocturne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nocturne)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/143 "2005-03-19T05:11:59Z")
> [@mattmorgan64](#): > > Really? It didn’t trump telling the truth to the state when the marriage was created. > > Oh, but wait! We didn’t want anything from the state them did we? But the only reason people get civil marriages is because the state grants them certain rights as a married couple. If there was no benefit to having a state-sanctioned matrimonial arrangement, then no one would get them. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/144 "2005-03-19T05:13:56Z")
> [@mattmorgan64](#): > > Really? It didn’t trump telling the truth to the state when the marriage was created. > > Oh, but wait! We didn’t want anything from the state them did we? Sure it did. If the poster was in the same situation while she was engaged, I’m sure she’d cancel the marriage if it meant her fiance could get the medical care he needed. Or maybe I don’t really get what the hell you’re trying to say. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/145 "2005-03-19T05:14:10Z")
Matt, You have been asked \*\*very specific questions \*\* to which there are **simple answers.** Accusations of taunting are no substitute for responses. Please answer the questions. It is clear you have the time. Please summon the will. ---
**Author:** ![mattmorgan64](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@mattmorgan64](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mattmorgan64)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/146 "2005-03-19T05:15:02Z")
> [@Nocturne](#): > > But the only reason people get civil marriages is because the state grants them certain rights as a married couple. If there was no benefit to having a state-sanctioned matrimonial arrangement, then no one would get them. Well then - if state sanctioned marriages are so wonderfull, that provides so many benefits, why are we talking about a couple seeking an artificial divorce? ---
**Author:** ![mattmorgan64](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@mattmorgan64](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mattmorgan64)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/147 "2005-03-19T05:16:22Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Matt, > > You have been asked \*\*very specific questions \*\* to which there are **simple answers.** > > Accusations of taunting are no substitute for responses. > > Please answer the questions. It is clear you have the time. Please summon the will. Huh? I asked the first question, and rather than an answer, I was met with other questions. No one has yet told my why lying is OK. And I want to know why it is OK. ---
**Author:** ![mattmorgan64](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@mattmorgan64](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mattmorgan64)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/148 "2005-03-19T05:18:05Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > Sure it did. If the poster was in the same situation while she was engaged, I’m sure she’d cancel the marriage if it meant her fiance could get the medical care he needed. Or maybe I don’t really get what the hell you’re trying to say. What I’m trying to say is getting a divorce from someone you have been married to, and still are in love with - for the sole purpose of getting benefits that you would be entitled to were you only both still single: Is a lie, it’s fraud, and it’s cheating the system. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/149 "2005-03-19T05:24:21Z")
> [@mattmorgan64](#): > > screwed up CA laws about no fault/no reason excluded, PLEASE. Don’t MOST of the states have no-fault divorce laws? Amusingly, the version in California was signed into law by then-governor Reagan, who was about as “red-state” as you can get, though the terminology wasn’t in use at the time. And your status as a great flaming asshole remains unchanged, since I don’t feel compelled to modify an insult which suits you so perfectly. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/150 "2005-03-19T05:25:21Z")
> [@mattmorgan64](#): > > Huh? > > I asked the first question, and rather than an answer, I was met with other questions. > > No one has yet told my why lying is OK. > > And I want to know why it is OK. You never said why stealing is okay when YOU do it, but not when anyone else does it, you fucking schmuck. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/151 "2005-03-19T05:26:31Z")
> [@mattmorgan64](#): > > Huh? > > I asked the first question, and rather than an answer, I was met with other questions. > > No one has yet told my why lying is OK. > > And I want to know why it is OK. No, you said lying is always a bad idea. That is a far cry from asking why lying is OK. We have provided you with situations where lying is not a bad idea. You have not acknowledged that. Please respond to those specific situations. You said stealing is wrong. You steal music. Please justify that. ---
**Author:** ![mattmorgan64](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@mattmorgan64](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mattmorgan64)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/152 "2005-03-19T05:27:42Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > You never said why stealing is okay when YOU do it, but not when anyone else does it, you fucking schmuck. Oh Bryan, my dear dear boy. For one so suposedly as experienced as you, you certainly have let me crawl under your skin very quickly, havn’t you? Run along, dear boy. There are squirrels in the field that demand your attention. Ta! ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/153 "2005-03-19T05:28:08Z")
> [@mattmorgan64](#): > > What I’m trying to say is getting a divorce from someone you have been married to, and still are in love with - for the sole purpose of getting benefits that you would be entitled to were you only both still single: Is a lie, it’s fraud, and it’s cheating the system. So what? Maybe the system’s flawed. If that’s the only way the guy can get the care he needs, I’m inclined to think that it is indeed flawed. ---
**Author:** ![Nocturne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9fc348/32.png) [@Nocturne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nocturne)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/154 "2005-03-19T05:30:25Z")
> [@mattmorgan64](#): > > What I’m trying to say is getting a divorce from someone you have been married to, and still are in love with - for the sole purpose of getting benefits that you would be entitled to were you only both still single: Is a lie, it’s fraud, and it’s cheating the system. And I believe there’s something wrong with a system when it lets things like this happen. Your mileage may vary. I don’t see how it’s an “artificial” divorce still…I’m not getting it. It would be on the books, they would not be considered married anymore…what about it makes it “artificial”? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/155 "2005-03-19T05:32:26Z")
> [@mattmorgan64](#): > > Well then - if state sanctioned marriages are so wonderfull, that provides so many benefits, why are we talking about a couple seeking an artificial divorce? What’s an "artificial’ divorce? A divorce full of aspartame? Do you mean to say “seeking a divorce based on false pretenses”? Well, in most states, pretenses aren’t required, so what’s the relevance? [sub]And I’m feeling superstituous about breaking a streak, so I’ll just call you “great flaming asshole” again to keep the chain unbroken[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/156 "2005-03-19T05:32:36Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > For any government benefit, there are qualifying criteria. Rightly or wrongly, they are based on a wide variety of things, such as marital status, family income, age, veteran status, minority status, whatever. > > If someone circumvents the law to appear married, and gain those benefits, that’s illegal, and wrong. > > But, if someone else circumvents the law to appear divorced, and gain those benefits, that’s OK with you? I never said, one way or another, whether i thought it was OK or not OK. That’s completely irrelevant. The question at hand is whether or not it is legal. You and **mattmorgan** appear to be claiming that it is illegal. All i’m asking is that you provide some evidence for this assertion, other than your gut feeling. As i suggested above, i’m perfectly willing to be convinced that it would be illegal, but you haven’t provided any evidence to support your assertion. > [@milroyj](#): > > Hint: The benefit in question is apparently based on “family” income. > > As a married couple, **AuGratin** and her husband apparently qualify for ‘X’ level of benefits. But if they got divorced, and **AuGratin’s** husband was again single, as a severely disabled person, his “family” income level is presumably zero, so his benefits are ‘X’ plus more, probably by a lot. > > Should she get a sham divorce to get more benefits for her husband? Anymore than someone else would get a sham marriage to get more benefits? Maybe. But it doesn’t seem honorable, or legal, to me. IMHO. IANAL. Ah, i see. It doesn’t _seem_ legal to you. I understand now. You’re not making an argument based on any actual knowledge; you’re just pulling crap out of your ass that happens to fit with your moral position, and pretending that your moral position is also a legal position. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/157 "2005-03-19T05:34:02Z")
> [@mattmorgan64](#): > > Oh Bryan, my dear dear boy. HA! You’ve got so many critics, you’re not even bothering to read our names any more. You great flaming DUMB asshole. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/158 "2005-03-19T05:34:38Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > You never said why stealing is okay when YOU do it, but not when anyone else does it, you fucking schmuck. Because it’s one thing to stop your children from starving. It’s another thing to not have the latest Hoobastank album without paying for it. That’s a greater wrong than stealing. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/159 "2005-03-19T05:35:19Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I never said, one way or another, whether i thought it was OK or not OK. That’s completely irrelevant. > > The question at hand is whether or not it is legal. You and **mattmorgan** appear to be claiming that it is illegal. All i’m asking is that you provide some evidence for this assertion, other than your gut feeling. > > As i suggested above, i’m perfectly willing to be convinced that it would be illegal, but you haven’t provided any evidence to support your assertion.Ah, i see. > > It doesn’t _seem_ legal to you. I understand now. You’re not making an argument based on any actual knowledge; you’re just pulling crap out of your ass that happens to fit with your moral position, and pretending that your moral position is also a legal position. Is fraud legal or not, yes or no? ---
**Author:** ![mattmorgan64](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@mattmorgan64](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mattmorgan64)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/160 "2005-03-19T05:36:42Z")
> [@Nocturne](#): > > And I believe there’s something wrong with a system when it lets things like this happen. Your mileage may vary. > > I don’t see how it’s an “artificial” divorce still…I’m not getting it. It would be on the books, they would not be considered married anymore…what about it makes it “artificial”? YES! THERE MAY BE SOMETHING WRONG WITH THE SYSTEM!!! I AGREE!!! Does that mean I stop paying taxes because I think there is something wrong? Does that mean I bitch out the attendant because I think the price of gas is too high? No? Then why, PLEASE FOR GODS SAKE SOMEONE PLEASE JUST TELL ME WHY it’s ok to get a divorce you never would have otherwise gotten in a million trillion years, except that if you get a divorce you can double your STATE PROVIDED benefits and still live together as if you never divorced. PLEASE TELL ME WHY, AND PLEASE don’t tell me it’s OK becuase I supposedly steal music. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248.md?page=9)