# Protocol question **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 19, 2005, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248 "2005-03-19T01:09:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![mattmorgan64](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@mattmorgan64](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mattmorgan64)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/161 "2005-03-19T05:38:11Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > HA! You’ve got so many critics, you’re not even bothering to read our names any more. > > You great flaming DUMB asshole. Your name is certainly one I will never read again, dear boy. Ta! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/162 "2005-03-19T05:38:18Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > Is fraud legal or not, yes or no? Is this situation fraud, yes or no? ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/163 "2005-03-19T05:39:33Z")
Does it really matter how the fraud occurs? Pretend to be married to get benefits = fraud Pretend to be divorced to get benefits /= fraud? Huh? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/164 "2005-03-19T05:39:38Z")
> [@mattmorgan64](#): > > YES! THERE MAY BE SOMETHING WRONG WITH THE SYSTEM!!! I AGREE!!! > > Does that mean I stop paying taxes because I think there is something wrong? > Does that mean I bitch out the attendant because I think the price of gas is too high? > No? > > Then why, PLEASE FOR GODS SAKE SOMEONE PLEASE JUST TELL ME WHY it’s ok to get a divorce you never would have otherwise gotten in a million trillion years, except that if you get a divorce you can double your STATE PROVIDED benefits and still live together as if you never divorced. > > PLEASE TELL ME WHY, AND PLEASE don’t tell me it’s OK becuase I supposedly steal music. Answer my questions and I will answer yours. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/165 "2005-03-19T05:40:18Z")
> [@mattmorgan64](#): > > Your name is certainly one I will never read again, dear boy. > > Ta! That’s okay. As far as I can tell, you can’t distinguish between me and Guinastasia, so it doesn’t matter. GFA. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/166 "2005-03-19T05:40:19Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > Is fraud legal or not, yes or no? No fraud is not legal. Now, you answer my question: Does the situation described by **AuGratin** fall under the legal definition of fraud in the state of California? ---
**Author:** ![mattmorgan64](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@mattmorgan64](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mattmorgan64)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/167 "2005-03-19T05:41:18Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Answer my questions and I will answer yours. Look trap, lets make a deal. In the spirit of happy negotiations… You go ahead. Ask me ONE question, I will answer it, I will then ask if I answered it to your satisfaction, and if you say yes, then I will ask you a question, and then the process will repeat. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/168 "2005-03-19T05:41:36Z")
> [@mattmorgan64](#): > > What I’m trying to say is getting a divorce from someone you have been married to, and still are in love with - for the sole purpose of getting benefits that you would be entitled to were you only both still single: Is a lie, it’s fraud, and it’s cheating the system. Okay, why? If he had not been married to her, he would have been eligible for the benefits. If she had died, he would have been eligible for the benefits. She is contemplating divorcing him **because she cares about him** and because no longer being married to her will make him eligible for the benefits. As for cheating the system, several posters already have made it clear that you are being a hypocrite; **you** decide when something is morally right or wrong, fraudulent or OK. Sorry, but the rest of us don’t play that game. You stand convicted as having admitted, by innuendo, of theft of music via the Internet. **Au Gratin** stands convicted of nothing more than being placed in the antinomy of having to divorce the husband she loves in order to make him eligible for the help he needs, thanks to the rules under which our medical assistance system works. May I respectfully suggest that you are standing on a Teflon-coated banana skin on thin ice in making moral judgments about whether **she** is committing any sort of theft or fraud? You also are doing an extremely good job of showing the moral myopia that characterizes much of American conservatism these days. Thank God we have a few decent conservatives on the board to counteract that. What, precisely, do you suggest that **Au Gratin** and Mr. Gratin do? And why would that be more moral than what she asks about? And while we’re at it, what do you think of the regulations that put them in this position? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/169 "2005-03-19T05:41:47Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > Pretend to be divorced to get benefits /= fraud? Huh? They wouldn’t be pretending to be divorced. They’d have the paperwork and everything. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/170 "2005-03-19T05:42:35Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > Does it really matter how the fraud occurs? > > Pretend to be married to get benefits = fraud > > Pretend to be divorced to get benefits /= fraud? Huh? Who, besides you and **Matt** , have postulated a pretend divorce? Both of you guys, establish the pretend divorce, and the discussion can go on. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/171 "2005-03-19T05:43:16Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > They wouldn’t be pretending to be divorced. They’d have the paperwork and everything. So do people who fraudently get married, so what? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/172 "2005-03-19T05:43:48Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > Does it really matter how the fraud occurs? > > Pretend to be married to get benefits = fraud > > Pretend to be divorced to get benefits /= fraud? Huh? They wouldn’t be “pretending” to be divorced-there would be a real, legal, lawful divorce. They would simply continue LIVING TOGETHER. There’s certainly nothing fraudulent about that. Hell, the Duke and Duchess of York still live in the same residence, IIRC, despite their divorce. Are they committing fraud? ---
**Author:** ![mattmorgan64](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@mattmorgan64](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mattmorgan64)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/173 "2005-03-19T05:44:31Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Okay, why? If he had not been married to her, he would have been eligible for the benefits. If she had died, he would have been eligible for the benefits. She is contemplating divorcing him **because she cares about him** and because no longer being married to her will make him eligible for the benefits. > > As for cheating the system, several posters already have made it clear that you are being a hypocrite; **you** decide when something is morally right or wrong, fraudulent or OK. Sorry, but the rest of us don’t play that game. > > You stand convicted as having admitted, by innuendo, of theft of music via the Internet. **Au Gratin** stands convicted of nothing more than being placed in the antinomy of having to divorce the husband she loves in order to make him eligible for the help he needs, thanks to the rules under which our medical assistance system works. May I respectfully suggest that you are standing on a Teflon-coated banana skin on thin ice in making moral judgments about whether **she** is committing any sort of theft or fraud? > > You also are doing an extremely good job of showing the moral myopia that characterizes much of American conservatism these days. Thank God we have a few decent conservatives on the board to counteract that. > > What, precisely, do you suggest that **Au Gratin** and Mr. Gratin do? And why would that be more moral than what she asks about? > > And while we’re at it, what do you think of the regulations that put them in this position? Why does every position counter to mine include an entire chorus of ‘ifs’ and artificial situations? The story is clear. A happily married woman wants a divorce to get benefits she can only get if she is not married. I offer you all no ifs, buts, whens or howevers. Is lying right, or is it wrong? Can anyone give me an answer? 8 hours and counting on this. ---
**Author:** ![mattmorgan64](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@mattmorgan64](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mattmorgan64)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/174 "2005-03-19T05:45:43Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Who, besides you and **Matt** , have postulated a pretend divorce? Both of you guys, establish the pretend divorce, and the discussion can go on. Trap, Im waiting for my question. Please, lets do this. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/175 "2005-03-19T05:45:54Z")
> [@mattmorgan64](#): > > Look trap, lets make a deal. > > In the spirit of happy negotiations… > You go ahead. Ask me ONE question, I will answer it, I will then ask if I answered it to your satisfaction, and if you say yes, then I will ask you a question, and then the process will repeat. If lying is always a BAD IDEA (your words) is it a bad idea to lie in order to prevent a loved one from suffering horribly and dying BEFORE HER TIME (your words)? ---
**Author:** ![Nocturne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9fc348/32.png) [@Nocturne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nocturne)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/176 "2005-03-19T05:46:10Z")
> [@mattmorgan64](#): > > Does that mean I stop paying taxes because I think there is something wrong? > Does that mean I bitch out the attendant because I think the price of gas is too high? > > Then why, PLEASE FOR GODS SAKE SOMEONE PLEASE JUST TELL ME WHY it’s ok to get a divorce you never would have otherwise gotten in a million trillion years, except that if you get a divorce you can double your STATE PROVIDED benefits and still live together as if you never divorced. I’m not even going to mention stealing music; the definition of when it’s okay to lie is not what I’m discussing with you here. So no worries from me on that one. I will tell you why I think it’s okay. Unfortunately after that we’ll probably go round and round in circles with Nocturne believes/matt believes, and I doubt we’re going to change each others’ minds. Why I Think It Is Okay: 1. I think her husband needs treatment 2. He cannot get treatment because of their marriage 3. If they divorced, he could, and he would not have to suffer 4. Because I am in favor of the State, such as it is, helping out the less fortunate (to a point, but I don’t know that I can get bogged down in explaining it tonight) 5. However, if there are indeed cases or statutes that would point to this being illegal fraud, then I would not advise doing it. Is that clear? Those are my reasons. You can pick them apart if you wish, but I can’t respond anymore tonight–it’s now officially my 22nd birthday and if I’m going to be able to do anything fun tomorrow, I have to get some sleep. I haven’t been able to sleep well for nearly a week now. But I’ll try to make it back sometime tomorrow amidst celebrations to try to answer you further if I need to do so. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/177 "2005-03-19T05:47:32Z")
> [@mattmorgan64](#): > > Why does every position counter to mine include an entire chorus of ‘ifs’ and artificial situations? > > The story is clear. A happily married woman wants a divorce to get benefits she can only get if she is not married. > > I offer you all no ifs, buts, whens or howevers. > > Is lying right, or is it wrong? But your question assumes facts not in evidence. There is no evidence of lying. ---
**Author:** ![mattmorgan64](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@mattmorgan64](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mattmorgan64)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/178 "2005-03-19T05:47:45Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > If lying is always a BAD IDEA (your words) is it a bad idea to lie in order to prevent a loved one from suffering horribly and dying BEFORE HER TIME (your words)? I answered this already, quite verbosely, but I’ll do it again, OK? But the deal is - you cant accuse me of not answering, nor can you ask me another question, until we both agree I’ve answered this, OK? ---
**Author:** ![mattmorgan64](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@mattmorgan64](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mattmorgan64)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/179 "2005-03-19T05:48:47Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > But your question assumes facts not in evidence. > > There is no evidence of lying. FUCK EVIDENCE! IS LYING RIGHT, OR IS IT WRONG, COUNSELLOR?!?!?!??!!??!?!?!? ---
**Author:** ![mattmorgan64](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@mattmorgan64](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mattmorgan64)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248/180 "2005-03-19T05:50:43Z")
> [@Nocturne](#): > > I’m not even going to mention stealing music; the definition of when it’s okay to lie is not what I’m discussing with you here. So no worries from me on that one. > > I will tell you why I think it’s okay. Unfortunately after that we’ll probably go round and round in circles with Nocturne believes/matt believes, and I doubt we’re going to change each others’ minds. > > Why I Think It Is Okay: > > 1. I think her husband needs treatment > 2. He cannot get treatment because of their marriage > 3. If they divorced, he could, and he would not have to suffer > 4. Because I am in favor of the State, such as it is, helping out the less fortunate (to a point, but I don’t know that I can get bogged down in explaining it tonight) > 5. However, if there are indeed cases or statutes that would point to this being illegal fraud, then I would not advise doing it. > > Is that clear? Those are my reasons. You can pick them apart if you wish, but I can’t respond anymore tonight–it’s now officially my 22nd birthday and if I’m going to be able to do anything fun tomorrow, I have to get some sleep. I haven’t been able to sleep well for nearly a week now. But I’ll try to make it back sometime tomorrow amidst celebrations to try to answer you further if I need to do so. OK, More tommorrow, and rest tight, I wont pick at any of your arguments till then. Nighty night, sleep tight. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/protocol-question/295248.md?page=10)