Prove that you have "dreams".

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

The challenge to prove that dreams occur is no more compelling than a challenge to prove that thoughts, hallucinations, pain, emotion or any other internal aspect of awareness occurs. How do I know you are sad? (How do I know I am sad, for that matter?) How do I know you’ll feel pain if I stomp on your toe? How do I know you can think?

All we can do is make inferences about others having these experiences based on observable data, including their self-report, its similarity or difference from our own experiences, and limited, indirect biological measurements that suggest activity is occurring in certain brain regions in ways that fit with our models of how things work.

As others have pointed out, this is no more relevant to the issue of evidence for religion or religious experience or other paranormal experience than my statement that “I imagined a Flying Spaghetti Monster” is relevant to my assertion that “A Flying Spaghetti Monster exists and is concerned about our morality and our punishment.”

Someone saying “I had a dream last night about a land of chocolate” is not challenging to our evidence-based theories about how we and the world work. Someone saying “I left my body last night and passed into a land of chocolate” is challenging and inconsistent with our evidence-based theories about how we and the world work.

[lekatt]

@Liberal

But it’s only their word. A subjective claim. It can’t be falsified.

Can you explain why falsification is necessary on subject matter such as dreams.

[Liberal]

@lekatt

Can you explain why falsification is necessary on subject matter such as dreams.

It’s necessary on subject matter such as science. The OP noted “the demand that one produce scientifically reproducible evidence”, which is a demand often (erroneously) made of analytic (a priori) claims around here.

[lekatt]

@Baldwin

The proposition that people have dreams only requires me to accept that other people, while sleeping, have images and imaginary experiences in their brains – just as I do myself (or at least, I have memories of having dreams). If you’re willing to stipulate that people do think and do imagine things that aren’t real, then dreaming isn’t a bizarre notion. Given that billions of people (most of the human population) claim to have dreams, given that I myself have dreams (or believe that I do), and given that the phenomenon of dreaming, as normally described, seems reasonable in context of what else we generally accept human brains are capable of, Occam’s Razor would lead to the simplest conclusion being that people do, in fact, dream.

Truly prescient dreams, on the other hand, would require a violation of the laws of physics as we know them. A claim like that requires an extraordinary level of evidence, which just isn’t there.

ETA: Lekatt, this board is supposed to be about fighting ignorance. You consistently, willfully, dishonestly do the opposite. That’s why, whenever there’s a thread like this, it’s annoying when you show up and start passing out the goofy candy.

OK, now you are calling me names, and hurting my feelings, I will quit this thread so as to not cause you distress. The link speaks for itself.

[hotflungwok]

Koxinga throws down glove, sticks chin out] As far as you’re able to prove, you have never had a so-called “dream” in your life, and it doen’t do you any good to say, well, other people have them too–'cause other people say they see ghosts and the Virgin Mary, and we know that’s all anectodal hoo-ha. So what do you say now, buddy?

Um, yes. So what? You can’t objectively prove the existance of a purely subjective experience? Yes, we already know that. It’s one of the reasons objective evidence is asked for when people put forth subjective experience as fact.

Dreams generally don’t affect the real world. If you say you had a dream about dancing squirrels, that’s generally it. But if you say you had a dream in which god told you to kill all the unbelievers, as I see you loading a shotgun, then I’m going to need a little more than your word for proof of this interpretation. And a SWAT team. Of course you can’t provide it, that’s the point. You have no way of proving it was really god, or Cthulhu, or the fact you ate mint jelly beans and green olives before you went to bed. So your subjective interpretation is be open to questioning, and you shouldn’t be shooting people over it.

It’s the interpretation that does it. You can have a dream about dancing squirrels or whatever without people thinking you’re nuts. It’s when you start saying things like ‘and I think that dream means…’ and then actually acting on it that people reach for the straight jackets.

@Koxinga

I know that there is such as thing as REM and probably brain activity, but isn’t that kind of indirect? In no way does it prove that I had a dream of falling last night. And that many other people have the same dreams, and it likely has such and such significance.

It is indirect, the same way all medical data is indirect. A nurse can’t experience my pulse, but can feel it by touching, and can see it on the monitor, and those are all indirect too. But they still work just fine for all intents and purposes so far. Why should the medical evidence we’ve got for dreams be dismissed like that? Of course it isn’t ‘proof’, we don’t have an overwhelming amount of objective data on dreams. But that doesn’t mean we don’t have a ‘good enough’ reason to think dreams exist.

And furthermore, how can you (if you’re a skeptic) accept that people have dreams, but pooh-pooh stories of prescient dreams? They both have the exact same lack of verifiable data and reliance on anecdote, so where do you draw the line?

This is actually, quite easy, I’m surprised you’re even asking it. A prescient dream has a verifiable result. Of course, there are all kinds of complicating factors, right up to simple coincidence, but there is still a way to verify if the dream was correct. Dreaming about violence in the Middle East isn’t prescient, it just means you read the paper. The problem with establishing prescience is eliminating all the complicating factors. If you can do that, and the dream is still proven correct, then it might be prescience.

[kanicbird]

1. How can we differentiate between a dream with a religious theme, and a religious vision that happens in one’s sleep? If it’s only the interpretation of the sleeper, we’re right back in the wonderful world of subjectivity. (At least, that’s what it looks like to me.)

I understand your point here.

@amrussell

3. There are recent accounts of aliens abducting people in their dreams and torturing them. How do they relate to the biblical accounts of evil spirits? I can think of four options: a) they’re both culturally-inspired interpretations of the physical/mental sensations resulting from a bad dream; b) the aliens are true, but the evil spirits were fictions; c) vice versa; d) they’re both true - in the past, evil spirits tormented people, now aliens abduct us. I favour a). If one believes b) or c), one must have reasons for accepting one account but rejecting the other. If d) is the case, we’re all going to need a lot more caffeine pills, because falling asleep is a mug’s game.

Some can relate to alien abductions and I could see it as a modern day equivenant of biblical encounters with evil spirits. They IMHO unquestionably torment people to this day as they did back then, to the point that some people try to avoid it by not sleeping. The fear they face in sleep is a round about proof that something happens.

This is very much MHO. When one experiences a spiritual encounter it is really not understandable directly, it is just to different then our reality and our mind has no idea what to do with that at first, and there is often a delay of a second or more of observing/perceiving something and having a idea of what you are perceiving as it has to be translated into things your mind can understand. Early humans didn’t have a concept of evil alien scientists, so their minds created something more understandable to them, evil spirits. Today we have both as we know them both and our mind will lock onto the closest fit to the spiritual equivalent.

2. Prophecy does provide a means of testing whether dreams happen, provided we can be sure we’re not being hoaxed. But I don’t think this happens very often.

Prophecy, which in it’s most general terms, is just some message from God, but in this context I’ve used it as a revelation of some sort, either future events or some information that the person could not have on their own. In Christian circles, once you get to a hard core group of believers prophecy does happen and it is not at all uncommon. A person claiming prophecy knows the weight behind such a claim, I personally use the following test before I would claim anything is prophecy - would I be willing to die if I was wrong in this. I suspect that most hard core believers would put such weight on their claims.

[Liberal]

@lekatt

OK, now you are calling me names, and hurting my feelings, I will quit this thread so as to not cause you distress. The link speaks for itself.

In the name of Jesus Christ, our Advocate, Almighty, Alpha and Omega , Amen, Apostle of our Profession, Atoning Sacrifice for our Sins, Author of Life, Author and Perfecter of our Faith, Author of Salvation, Beginning and End, Blessed and only Ruler, Bread of God, Bread of Life, Bridegroom, Capstone, Chief Cornerstone, Chief Shepherd, Christ, Creator, Deliverer, Eternal Life, Faithful and True, Faithful Witness, Faithful and True Witness, First and Last, Firstborn From the Dead, Firstborn over all creation, Gate, God, Good Shepherd, Great High Priest, Head of the Church, Heir of all things, High Priest, Holy and True, Holy One, Hope, Hope of Glory, Horn of Salvation, I Am, Image of God, Immanuel, Judge of the living and the dead, King Eternal, King of Israel, King of the Jews, King of kings, King of the Ages, Lamb, Lamb of God, Lamb Without Blemish, Last Adam, Life, Light of the World, Lion of the Tribe of Judah, Living One, Lord, Lord of Glory, Lord of lords, Man from Heaven, Mediator of the New Covenant, Mighty God, Morning Star, Only Begotten Son of God, Great God and Savior, Holiness, Protection, Redemption, Righteousness, Sacrificed Passover Lamb, Power of God, Precious Cornerstone, Prophet, Rabbi, Resurrection and Life, Righteous Branch, Rock, Root of David, Ruler of God’s Creation, Ruler of the Kings of the Earth, Savior, Son of Man, Son of the Most High God, Source of Eternal Salvation, The One Mediator, The Stone the builders rejected, True Bread, True Light, True Vine, Truth, Way, Wisdom of God, Word, and Word of God, I beg you to just drop it.

[Contrapuntal]

You had me at “Advocate.”

[hotflungwok]

Since when is he a bridegroom?

[Liberal]

Matthew 9:15. Think “nuns”.

[hotflungwok]

Eww. No thankx.

[HMS_Irruncible]

I know it’s hard to prove dreams actually occur, but what other reason would I have for shouting out in my sleep “Oh J. Lo, baby, back that truck up right now?” Replies appreciated as my wife is interested in an explanation.

[kanicbird]

@hotflungwok

Since when is he a bridegroom?

@Matthew 9:15

Jesus answered, "How can the guests of the bridegroom mourn while he is with them? The time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them; then they will fast

similar in Mark, Concept in** Revelation19:9**

@Rev 19:9

9Then the angel said to me, "Write: ‘Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!’ " And he added, “These are the true words of God.”

[Koxinga]

@Liberal

This is probably the best OP by a new guest I’ve ever seen. The logic is unassailable, the idea original, and the point important. Welcome to the board. Your membership for one year has been paid.

Thank you!!! I’ve been lurking quite a while, and I’ve admired your posts during that time Liberal. I feel honored to be sponsored by you, and by the welcome I’ve gotten from the board.

It’s past midnight here in Taiwan, and a mega-typhoon is about to hit, so I’m afraid I don’t have time to reply to the rest of the thread for now. But thank you all once again, and see you on Monday–probably.

Koxinga

[Contrapuntal]

@hotflungwok

Since when is he a bridegroom?

I dunno. Since when am I a bride?

I was making a little joke. Because **Lib **overmade his point by a few orders of magnitude. On purpose, I’m sure.

What does being a bridegroom have to do with it? Is every man who receives an affirmative to his proposal a bridegroom? Doesn’t there have to be a, you know, wedding?

[kanicbird]

@Contrapuntal

What does being a bridegroom have to do with it? Is every man who receives an affirmative to his proposal a bridegroom? Doesn’t there have to be a, you know, wedding?

Read post #33 re: Rev 9:19

There is a wedding of the Lamb of God and His church. A way to look at this is this is how we become children of God, when Jesus marries the church we (believers) become ‘children-in-law’ of the Father.

[Wakinyan]

Dreams are not a good choice for a champion in this discussion, because dreams are predictable and measurable. You know when a dream is about to happen, and you’re able measure it, and it doesn’t as such question the popular view.

The problem with ghosts and such (if there are such a thing of course), is that it is not predictable and not measurable as far as I know.

For instance, last weekend we were at a barbeque at my brother’s, and when the kids had gone to bed we had yet another beer and talked about many things, our childhood, our cousins and so forth, one of them in particular who we all were very fond of, but who shot himself. At this point I was pretty far from any “spooky mood”, as you can imagine, but realised that the lamp, hanging from the roof at the other side of the room, was swaying back and forth, back and forth in an… erm… “unusual” way. I didn’t mind much, (didn’t say anything because it looked spooky and my wife is afraid of ghosts)

but, suppose there was some supernatural thing going on (this was indoors, closed doors, noone was or had been close to the lamp for say half an hour, it’s a fairly heavy lamp made of iron, etc) - how are you going to prove something supernatural was going on.

I’m not saying it was, but if these phenomen do occur, it is not predictable and not measureable. You can’t repeat it, measure it, prove it. - This is the problem with the non-sceptics: They can’t prove their world view. On the other hand, the ones who believe in dreams can, and the ones who believe in candy can, and so forth.

[Contrapuntal]

@kanicbird

Read post #33 re: Rev 9:19

There is a wedding of the Lamb of God and His church. A way to look at this is this is how we become children of God, when Jesus marries the church we (believers) become ‘children-in-law’ of the Father.

Fine. What has that to do with my post?

[dart]

Kind of like, “How do you know that the color you refer to as red is not the color that someone else sees as what you would call blue?” You just can’t go inside someone else’s head… but I’d say there’s a lot more science in favor of the existence of dreams (and that every single person on earth isn’t just crazy… cause even if you don’t generally remember them, I’m sure you remember at least one) and a lot less scientific evidence that there are ghosts, for example.

[Liberal]

@Wakinyan

Dreams are not a good choice for a champion in this discussion, because dreams are predictable and measurable. You know when a dream is about to happen, and you’re able measure it, and it doesn’t as such question the popular view.

Dreams are not 100% predictable (like say, gravity) even during REM sleep. But they’re not predicable at all in other stages of sleep. In fact, they happen when you’re not asleep at all.

Moreover, dreaming is not limited to REM sleep. Frequent dreaming also occurs at sleep onset in the absence of REM sleep. In the transition from relaxed wakefulness to NREM sleep, dreams are reported from about 30 to 40% of “awakenings” when the EEG contains alpha waves, and from 70% to 75% of awakenings during Stages 1 and 2. Dreams are also retrieved from about 50% of awakenings from Stages 3 and 4. More surprising, when subjects are in a quiet dark room with their eyes closed, dreams, i.e., hallucinated, dramatic events, are obtained from about 25% of “arousals” from relaxed wakefulness. Thus, sleep laboratory studies find that frequent, and often prolonged dreaming occurs in all states of EEG defined consciousness: wakefulness, sleep onset, NREM sleep, and REM sleep.

Sleep Tips: Get Better Sleep Tonight - Sleep Junkie

There are also different kinds of dreams, and not all people have them. Like lucid dreams, for instance. Some people claim to have them. Some never have them. Some people have recurring dreams. Some don’t. Some have sexual dreams. Some don’t. There’s no way to know whether someone is having a particular kind of dream — let alone the contextual details of their dream — until they wake up and tell you. It’s all subjective claim. EEGs don’t tell you what people are dreaming any more than they read people’s minds.

I don’t know what you mean by “the popular view”, but it doesn’t sound relevant.