# Provenance of the term "horny"?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/provenance-of-the-term-horny/402577
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [May 3, 2007, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/provenance-of-the-term-horny/402577 "2007-05-03T03:54:16Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2007, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/provenance-of-the-term-horny/402577/1 "2007-05-03T03:54:16Z")
Does anyone know how long the term “horny”, as a cruder synonym for “aroused sexually”, has been in use? Has it been around since the 19th century?
I want to refer to an old man, in a period piece I’m collaborating on, as “a horny old bastand”. But if a different term would be better I’d like to know.
In searching I’ver not found an answer, but have sound some…odd…websites.
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### Author:  [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2007, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/provenance-of-the-term-horny/402577/2 "2007-05-03T04:06:02Z")
> [@](#):
>
> It turns out that some naughty people in the 16th century (including our good friend Will Shakespeare) decided that horn was a euphemism that would help them get away with talking about erect penises in public. Gremio, after receiving a size-does-matter insult in the Taming of the Shrew, responds, “Am I but three inches? Why thy horne is a foot and so long am I at the least” (1594).
Horny: [Word of the Day](http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=20000302)
[Alt Usage English](http://alt-usage-english.org/concordance_interface.shtml)
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### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2007, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/provenance-of-the-term-horny/402577/3 "2007-05-03T04:08:20Z")
Somewhat surprisingly, it didn’t come up in a search of the [complete works of Shakespeare](http://shakespeare.mit.edu/), so I think we can at least say that it wasn’t in useage by 1616. Because if it were, the Bard would surely have used it.
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### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2007, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/provenance-of-the-term-horny/402577/4 "2007-05-03T04:10:36Z")
And so I collide with **Squink**. Yes, I was aware that “horn” could mean “penis” (or other sexual meanings; horns were also a symbol of a cuckold) in Shakespeare’s works, but the question is about the adjectival form.
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### Author:  [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2007, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/provenance-of-the-term-horny/402577/5 "2007-05-03T04:13:58Z")
While the use of the term “horn” as a euphemism for penis might date to the 16th century, as suggested by **Squink** ’s citation, the _Oxford English Dictionary_ gives the earliest use of the term “horny” to describe a person in a state of sexual excitement as 1889.
Here is the full list of OED quotations for “horny”:
> [@](#):
>
> **1889** BARRÈRE & LELAND Dict. Slang I. 476/1 Horny, lecherous, in a state of sexual desire, in rut. **1918** Dialect Notes V. 25 Horny, amative. **1949** H. MILLER Sexus (1969) v. 104 Her thick, gurgling voice saying..: ‘Get it in all the way…please, please do… I’m horny.’ Ibid. x. 239 When I look at this thing I get horny again. **1965** J. L. HERLIHY Midnight Cowboy (1966) II. v. 120 You are a gorgeous-lookin’ piece, Cass. Gets a guy all horny just lookin’ at you. **1968** M. RICHLER Cocksure xi. 63 When..he used to make a habit of watching the hockey games..he always felt horny. **1970** T. LEWIS Jack’s Return Home 43 The talk’d got filthier. It’d made me very horny. **1971** Black World Oct. 65/1 Ain’t that the horny bitch that was grindin with the blind dude.
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### Author:  [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2007, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/provenance-of-the-term-horny/402577/6 "2007-05-03T04:20:22Z")
Should add, i guess, that the OED’s first citation is from a dictionary of slang, suggesting that the word was in popular use for some time before the 1889 publication date.
I just asked my wife, who does research in mid-nineteenth century pornographic texts (mainly the “sporting” or “racy” press) if she had ever come across the term, and she said that she had not. The texts she uses are mainly American.
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### Author:  [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2007, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/provenance-of-the-term-horny/402577/7 "2007-05-03T04:21:39Z")
I love this place. _Sniff!_
Thanks for all the links. The story I’m working with is set in 1883, so I can probably get away with using the term then. **mhendo** ’s OED link has the earliest known in print usage being 1889, but terms often are in general usage before being written down.
Thanks for all the replies!
P.S. The character speaking would be an American,\*\* mhendo\*\*.
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### Author:  [@scm1001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scm1001)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2007, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/provenance-of-the-term-horny/402577/8 "2007-05-03T04:35:04Z")
the master speaks… [http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1\_286a.html](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_286a.html)
oh and any horny sailors interested in a game of **Able-whackets**
“- A popular sea-game with cards, in which the loser is beaten over the palms of the hands with a handkerchief tightly twisted like a rope. Very popular with horny-fisted sailors.” [Smyth, “Sailor’s Word-Book,” 1867]"
from [http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=horny&searchmode=none](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=horny&searchmode=none)
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### Author:  [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2007, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/provenance-of-the-term-horny/402577/9 "2007-05-03T04:45:28Z")
[QUOTE=scm1001]
the master speaks… [http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1\_286a.html](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_286a.html)
oh and any horny sailors interested in a game of **Able-whackets**
“- A popular sea-game with cards, in which the loser is beaten over the palms of the hands with a handkerchief tightly twisted like a rope. Very popular with horny-fisted sailors.” [Smyth, “Sailor’s Word-Book,” 1867]"
from [Search 'horny' on etymonline](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=horny&searchmode=none)
[/QUOTE]
Well, it seems that Cecil made the mistake of conflating the noun “horn” with the adjective “horny.” While there is surely some sort of connection, i’ve still seen no evidence that “horny,” in the sense required by the OP, was used before the 19th century.
And i’m also skeptical that your Sailor’s Word-Book cite answers the OP’s question, because a reference to “horny-handed” need have nothing to do with arousal or sexuality. The use of “horny” as part of a physical description is also dealt with by the OED, quite separately from the issue of esexuality:
> [@](#):
>
> Comb., parasynthetic, as horny-browed, -eyed, -fisted, -handed, -hoofed, -knuckled, -nibbed adjs.; horny-head (in full hornyhead chub) U.S., a North American cyprinid fish, Nocomis biguttatus; occasionally also used for Campostoma anomalum, a smaller cyprinid.
>
> \
>
> **1859** J. BROWN Rab & F. 8 That \*horny-handed, snell, peremptory little man. 1892 Spectator 10 Dec. 847/2 He must have employed indirectly tens of thousands of the horny-handed.
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### Author:  [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2007, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/provenance-of-the-term-horny/402577/10 "2007-05-03T05:15:57Z")
Well, now that we have the _etymology_ of “horny” well underway, does anybody want to address its _provenance_?
-Who last owned the word?
-How many previous owners can be verified?
-Can it be authenticated as a genuine word and not a forgery, copy or fake?
😃
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### Author:  [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2007, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/provenance-of-the-term-horny/402577/11 "2007-05-03T10:00:20Z")
Okay, **Doug** , you caught me out! 😛 I used “provenance” incorrectly!
That’s what I get when I’m in a hurry. using the wrong word for “background of”.
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### Author:  [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2007, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/provenance-of-the-term-horny/402577/12 "2007-05-03T14:29:23Z")
[QUOTE=mhendo]
While the use of the term “horn” as a euphemism for penis might date to the 16th century, as suggested by **Squink** ’s citation, the _Oxford English Dictionary_ gives the earliest use of the term “horny” to describe a person in a state of sexual excitement as 1889.
Here is the full list of OED quotations for “horny”:
[/QUOTE]
The OED is apparently missing something, as often happens.
If you read the full link that **Squink** gives at Word of the Day, you’ll see:
> [@](#):
>
> Horny made its debut one hundred years later in Secret & Sacred: “[Feeling] so horny” (Bleser, 1826).
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### Author:  [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2007, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/provenance-of-the-term-horny/402577/13 "2007-05-03T16:09:22Z")
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase]
The OED is apparently missing something, as often happens.
[/QUOTE]
And as happens just as often, people fail to grasp exactly what it is that the _OED_ claims to cover.
That 1826 reference comes from a manuscript letter, which I rather suspect was never quoted in print until 1988.
> **[Secret and Sacred](https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Cf2TxvqkMnwC&pg=PA5&ots=nRHUbiupYw&dq=%22feeling+so+horny%22&sig=uJp09U2_R0wJgZsdbVGpnc1Zz2o&hl=en)**
>
> The thoughts, triumphs, travails, and, at times, despicable actions of a leading antebellum politicianA remarkably candid set of diaries, Secret and Sacred brings to light the intimate journal notations of James Henry Hammond, a prominent South...
That would never have qualified for inclusion in the 2nd edition of the _OED_, whether or not the compilers knew about it, because that edition was explicitly and quite reasonably intended, for that late period, only as a record of usage in print.
None of which is a problem, except to those who want to jump to the conclusion that the _OED_ was trying to do anything more.
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### Author:  [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2007, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/provenance-of-the-term-horny/402577/14 "2007-05-03T16:27:29Z")
Actually, **APB** , i think that what your link best demonstrates (good detective work, by the way) is the dishonesty of that reference to Bleser’s book in the link provided by **Squink** and quoted by **Exapno Mapcase**.
By citing (Bleser, 1826), that Word of the Day article implied that a book, written by Bleser and published in 1826, contained the word “horny” in its sexual sense. What your link shows us is that the book wasn’t actually published until 1988, and contained a reference to an 1826 letter in which the term “horny” was used.
Citing sources like they have done would earn them a reprimand from any good history teacher. The citation should have read something like: Thomas Jefferson Withers to James Henry Hammond (October 31, 1826), cited in Bleser, _Secret and Sacred_ (1988).
It’s not really **Exapno Mapcase** ’s fault that he assumed the Bleser reference was to a work that was in print in 1826. The way the work was cited, i made the same assumption.
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### Author:  [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2007, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/provenance-of-the-term-horny/402577/15 "2007-05-03T17:14:27Z")
The claim that the OED often misses the earliest usage of a word or a meaning of a word is a simple statement of fact.
The OED is a phenomenal resource but can never be complete or completely accurate. Modern research continually provides earlier usages than the OED records. I’ve done it myself by a search of searchable newspaper archives now made available on the net.
There is a long-standing perception by many people that the OED is the, ahem, last word on first usages. It often is, but not always. That’s all I was saying. Well, I was also making the point that people around here often don’t read the links provided and so miss important information that answers other questions that arise in the course of a thread.
Now, I appreciate **APB** ’s correction of the mistake made on the link. Threads work best when everybody checks everybody else’s work and makes corrections and adds information. Snarkiness is inevitable, and I plead guilty of it myself. (Hell, I take pride in being one of the best.) But you can wind up with egg on your face when you snark in mistake.
> **[Egg on one's face: Origin and History](https://www.worldwidewords.org/qa-egg2.html)**
>
> How did the phrase 'egg on one's face' come to symbolise embarrassment, and why did this peculiarly messy insult emerge only in mid-twentieth-century America?
> [@](#):
>
> It feels like one of those expressions that have been around for ever, but the evidence suggest that it’s an American expression from the middle of last century (its first known appearance was in an American television series about 1951).
But the Online Etymology Dictionary, which often takes its dates from that other OED says:
> [@](#):
>
> To have egg on (one’s) face “be made to look foolish” is first recorded 1964.
It’s a game. Fun, but just a game.
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### Author:  [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2007, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/provenance-of-the-term-horny/402577/16 "2007-05-03T17:31:24Z")
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase]
There is a long-standing perception by many people that the OED is the, ahem, last word on first usages. It often is, but not always.
[/quote]
And i never claimed it was. I merely offered its quotations as one set of data for the OP.
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase]
That’s all I was saying. Well, I was also making the point that people around here often don’t read the links provided and so miss important information that answers other questions that arise in the course of a thread.
[/quote]
Well, i also assume that if someone links to an article, and quotes from that article, they will quote the part of the article that best answers the question under discussion.
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### Author:  [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)
#### Post date: [May 3, 2007, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/provenance-of-the-term-horny/402577/17 "2007-05-03T17:38:24Z")
[QUOTE=mhendo]
Well, i also assume that if someone links to an article, and quotes from that article, they will quote the part of the article that best answers the question under discussion.
[/QUOTE]
You’re saying that you joined the Dope yesterday? 🙂
Our experiences are obviously diametrically opposed.
Always, always, always, always, always, always. Always read the links. Never assume. Never, never, never, never, never.
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### Author:  [@scm1001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scm1001)
#### Post date: [May 4, 2007, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/provenance-of-the-term-horny/402577/18 "2007-05-04T03:32:33Z")
[QUOTE=mhendo]
And i’m also skeptical that your Sailor’s Word-Book cite answers the OP’s question, because a reference to “horny-handed” need have nothing to do with arousal or sexuality. The use of “horny” as part of a physical description is also dealt with by the OED, quite separately from the issue of esexuality:
[/QUOTE]
I realise that. I just couldnt resist posting the word **Able-whackets** together with horny sailors
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### Author:  [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)
#### Post date: [May 4, 2007, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/provenance-of-the-term-horny/402577/19 "2007-05-04T03:50:21Z")
[QUOTE=scm1001]
I realise that. I just couldnt resist posting the word **Able-whackets** together with horny sailors
[/QUOTE]
Well, that’s completely understandable.
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### Author:  [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)
#### Post date: [May 4, 2007, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/provenance-of-the-term-horny/402577/20 "2007-05-04T17:23:15Z")
Heh. Sometimes you can’t even assume that [the poster of a link](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8529112&postcount=4) has read the text there. 🙂
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