# Proving real ID if accused of fake? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 7, 2019, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proving-real-id-if-accused-of-fake/827357 "2019-01-07T15:37:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2019, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proving-real-id-if-accused-of-fake/827357/21 "2019-01-07T20:51:37Z")
> [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](#): > > Proper procedure would be to **confiscate** the ‘fake’ ID – refuse to give it back and place it in the cash register. Then report it to management, and they can deal with the customer and appropriate authorities. Same as is done with counterfeit cash, or an invalid credit card. In what jurisdiction? In CA if you take my ID and refuse to give it back you have just committed theft, and I will be calling the police (realistically filing a police report) and (more seriously for you) registering a complaint with the ABC. Nothing in CA law gives you the right to steal my important government-issued document from me, just because you think it looks funny. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2019, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proving-real-id-if-accused-of-fake/827357/22 "2019-01-07T21:01:18Z")
> [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](#): > > Of course, the store still does not have to sell to you. But you would have valid reason to complain about that clerk to the corporate office. And possibly file a complaint with the State Liquor Licensing Board… No. If the simply and _politely_ refuse to sell to you, no one should do anything about it. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2019, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proving-real-id-if-accused-of-fake/827357/23 "2019-01-07T21:10:42Z")
> [@EdelweissPirate](#): > > I had the inverse experience. As I said in a post above, I look young for my age. Between the ages of roughly 16-19, I used to get pulled over all the time by cops who were pretty sure they’d caught a 14-year-old out for a joy ride. One cop in particular went berserk: he yelled at me and berated me, at one point suggesting anyone driving at 70 MPH was traveling faster than a bullet from his pistol. (He was off by an order of magnitude). It was a bizarre rant on many levels. > > Well, your local ABC (Alcoholic Beverage Control?) was wrong. Systematically refusing to sell to black people, for example, would obviously be illegal. Their point was surely that you could refuse to sell to anyone who you suspected of being underage even if you couldn’t prove that. Similarly, you could refuse to sell to someone who you found uncivil, who lacked a shirt/shoes, or whatever. But “for any reason” isn’t literally true. Well, barring not selling to a protected class. If we thought the person was too intoxicated, too young, too beligerant, buying for young people it didn’t matter thier color or disabilities. We routinely refused sales to the very intoxicated. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2019, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proving-real-id-if-accused-of-fake/827357/24 "2019-01-07T21:12:08Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > In what jurisdiction? In CA if you take my ID and refuse to give it back you have just committed theft, and I will be calling the police (realistically filing a police report) and (more seriously for you) registering a complaint with the ABC. > > Nothing in CA law gives you the right to steal my important government-issued document from me, just because you think it looks funny. Fake IDs, counterfeit cash, etc. are _contraband_, and nobody has a legal right to posses them. So it’s not “theft” if they’re taken from you. If you call the police, they will determine if the ID is fake or not. If it’s not, they will have the clerk give it back to you. You could still try filing a theft charge against the clerk; unlikely that any county attorney would pursue such a case. (They _want_ clerks to be diligent about checking for fake IDs. They even run stings looking for lax clerks.) ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2019, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proving-real-id-if-accused-of-fake/827357/25 "2019-01-07T21:23:11Z")
> [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](#): > > Fake IDs, counterfeit cash, etc. are _contraband_, and nobody has a legal right to posses them. So it’s not “theft” if they’re taken from you. That doesn’t mean you can just take something because you think it looks funny. Saying “contraband” does not give you any special rights. Taking my ID is theft, no clerk or barman should be stealing stuff from their customers. Counterfeit currency is a very different for many reasons. Not least that it was handed over without the expectation of getting it back (though with the expectation that they’d fraudulently get something in return). > [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](#): > > If you call the police, they will determine if the ID is fake or not. If it’s not, they will have the clerk give it back to you. You could still try filing a theft charge against the clerk; unlikely that any county attorney would pursue such a case. (They _want_ clerks to be diligent about checking for fake IDs. They even run stings looking for lax clerks.) The police are very unlikely to turn up. But that doesn’t change the fact that theft just took place. I would be completely within my rights to file an ABC complaint, that theft was carried out by the staff (naming the staff member who carried it out). That is not an empty threat, it could have serious repercussions for the establishment. And its how I’d handle the case in the OP (which, as I said, happened to someone I know in SF). Someone thinking they can steal my important legal ID is bullshit. There is no legal basis for that. Saying “I thought it was contraband” doesn’t change that. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proving-real-id-if-accused-of-fake/827357/26 "2019-01-08T10:15:53Z")
> [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](#): > > Fake IDs, counterfeit cash, etc. are _contraband_, and nobody has a legal right to posses them. So it’s not “theft” if they’re taken from you. I almost had an interesting case a few years ago. The facts were as follows. A hotel maid is cleaning a room and finds several stamps of heroin in the room (located in a convenience store bag). She confiscates them and takes them to the front desk, still in the convenience store bag. She tells the manager who places the bag by the phone. As he is calling the police, the hotel guest (allegedly) walks by, sees the bag, yoinks them and runs out the front door. In addition to possession of the drugs, the state charged him with larceny as well. I remember thinking that they were going to have trouble with proving that it was the registered guest of the hotel anyways, but to your point, how could they possibly charge him with larceny? Because: 1) heroin is an illegal substance and the state does not recognize title vesting in anyone, and 2) assuming otherwise, the hotel did not possess title, he did. If anything the hotel stole the drugs from him. Another interesting thing would be the convenience store bag itself. That is not illegal. Would the hotel maid be guilty of the larceny of that item? ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proving-real-id-if-accused-of-fake/827357/27 "2019-01-08T10:21:28Z")
> [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](#): > > Fake IDs, counterfeit cash, etc. are _contraband_, and nobody has a legal right to posses them. Cite for the claim that merely possessing fake ID (as opposed to actually using it to obtain something to which you normally wouldn’t have access, or to impersonate a third party) is illegal? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proving-real-id-if-accused-of-fake/827357/28 "2019-01-08T11:04:51Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > Cite for the claim that merely possessing fake ID (as opposed to actually using it to obtain something to which you normally wouldn’t have access, or to impersonate a third party) is illegal? I know that this was not directed at me, but just working this out legally on the fly, assuming that the mere possession of a fake ID is not illegal (which based upon my 30 second analysis, I believe is correct) there is a crime committed in all of the scenarios above in that the person is attempting to use the fake ID to obtain a benefit: the purchase of alcohol that he or she is not legally permitted to purchase. So, at minimum, the clerk has probable cause to believe he has witnessed a misdemeanor crime. However, in my state (and I believe most others) a citizen’s arrest may be had only upon probable cause of a felony, or a misdemeanor breach of the peace committed in his presence. Unlawful purchase of alcohol is, I would think, undisputedly not a breach of the peace, so there is no privilege of arrest by the clerk. But may he confiscate the ID as evidence for future prosecution of a crime? Keep in mind that he did not use force to procure the ID as the purchaser handed it to him. He did not take it with the intent to permanently deprive the owner of the ID; he took it presumably to present it to the police for lawful disposition whether that be to return it to the holder or to confiscate it for criminal prosecution. So “theft” is not an accurate term. Unlike joyriding in a car, there is no crime in temporarily keeping someone else’s other property for longer than agreed, that I can think of. That would be a civil tort. And like most things in law, I believe that the reasonableness and good faith in his action would decide the outcome. Does he not believe that New Mexico is really a state? You may have something there. Is it an obvious cut and paste job where the birthdate is clearly altered? Not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Asuka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@Asuka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asuka)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proving-real-id-if-accused-of-fake/827357/29 "2019-01-08T11:31:53Z")
I’ve had store owners refuse to accept my expired drivers license as valid in order to buy beer before despite the fact I was 26 at the time and it was just a year expired. For those wondering, it was because I used to keep my current drivers license in my cars glove compartment and keep my old one as ID in case my wallet got stolen. So dumb. ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proving-real-id-if-accused-of-fake/827357/30 "2019-01-08T12:48:37Z")
When working at a shop I once had a guy produce a letter from the Israeli embassy as an ‘ID’. He was absolutely furious at me when I refused to take it -for a start, it was just a letter printed on normal office paper, and didn’t have a photo or anything. Apparently I was disrespecting the Israeli government by my refusal, because they’d told him it was valid until he got his replacement passport issued. For immigration purposes maybe hon, but not for buying a beer. Most of the fakes are very obvious; ‘holograms’ that are just silver paint, blurry illegible text and blank backs on driving licenses. A few of my colleagues confiscated them (mostly to laugh at later), I never did. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proving-real-id-if-accused-of-fake/827357/31 "2019-01-08T12:49:11Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I know that this was not directed at me, but just working this out legally on the fly, assuming that the mere possession of a fake ID is not illegal (which based upon my 30 second analysis, I believe is correct) there is a crime committed in all of the scenarios above in that the person is attempting to use the fake ID to obtain a benefit: the purchase of alcohol that he or she is not legally permitted to purchase. The first hit I got when I looked it up was CA penal code 470b PC. > [@](#): > > Every person who displays or causes or permits to be displayed or has in his possession any driver’s license or identification card with the intent that such driver’s license or identification card be used to facilitate the commission of any forgery, is punishable by… Very quickly reading it over, it appears that simply owning one isn’t illegal, but as soon you use it or attempt to use it, it is illegal. Also, if an officer were ever to catch you with one (ie they pat you down for something unrelated), I can’t imagine you won’t get charged and it’ll be up to you/your attorney to prove that you never used it and had no intent on using it, even though you were carrying it around. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proving-real-id-if-accused-of-fake/827357/32 "2019-01-08T12:58:54Z")
Of course, it would first be up to the prosecutor to _prove_ that it’s a fake ID, as opposed to a movie prop or anything else. Given that the bar bouncer hasn’t proven anything, I doubt they have the right to confiscate anything. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proving-real-id-if-accused-of-fake/827357/33 "2019-01-08T13:29:37Z")
> [@Filbert](#): > > Most of the fakes are very obvious; ‘holograms’ that are just silver paint, blurry illegible text and blank backs on driving licenses. A friend was once searching her 17 year old daughter’s bedroom. She found a PA driver’s license with her daughter’s picture and a date of birth that made her 21. It looked legit. She kept the DL and later showed it to me. I compared it to my PA DL and couldn’t find any reason to think it a forgery. We took it to a bar owned by a friend of mine and showed it to him. He used a black light, a very bright white light, and a magnifying glass; he judged the license to be real. When confronted, the daughter refused to discuss the situation. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proving-real-id-if-accused-of-fake/827357/34 "2019-01-08T14:10:20Z")
Wisconsin law deals with this. To an extent. [125.039  Civil liability exemption for retaining proofs of age](https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/statutes/125/I/039) _No person who holds a license or permit and no employee of such a person is civilly liable for retaining a document presented as proof of age for a reasonable length of time in a good faith effort to determine whether the person who presented the document is an underage person or to notify a law enforcement authority of a suspected violation of s. 125.085 (3) (a) or (b)._ Notice it doesn’t define what a “reasonable amount of time” is. It also does not protect against destroying an ID. During my first LEO career I was a compliance investigator in the vice sector of the detective bureau. Whenever we did an announced visit to a store or tavern we’d always receive at least a few false ID’s. What usually happened was the clerk or bartender would say they were calling the police to have them determine if the ID was real. If it was fake the person would run out, leaving the ID. The state provides a [manaual](https://www.revenue.wi.gov/Pages/AlcoholBeverage/home.aspx) that includes instructions on how to check ID’s (Page 14). Notice it doesn’t say to destroy a suspected ID. Suspected fake identification should be turned over to the police ASAP if not immediately. Destroying it is destroying evidence of a crime. ETA: OP: Even if the police were to have come and determined the ID was legit, the store doesn’t have to sell you anything. But you already know that. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proving-real-id-if-accused-of-fake/827357/35 "2019-01-08T14:15:48Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I know that this was not directed at me, but just working this out legally on the fly, assuming that the mere possession of a fake ID is not illegal (which based upon my 30 second analysis, I believe is correct) there is a crime committed in all of the scenarios above in that the person is attempting to use the fake ID to obtain a benefit: the purchase of alcohol that he or she is not legally permitted to purchase. > > So, at minimum, the clerk has probable cause to believe he has witnessed a misdemeanor crime. However, in my state (and I believe most others) a citizen’s arrest may be had only upon probable cause of a felony, or a misdemeanor breach of the peace committed in his presence. Unlawful purchase of alcohol is, I would think, undisputedly not a breach of the peace, so there is no privilege of arrest by the clerk. > > But may he confiscate the ID as evidence for future prosecution of a crime? Keep in mind that he did not use force to procure the ID as the purchaser handed it to him. He did not take it with the intent to permanently deprive the owner of the ID; he took it presumably to present it to the police for lawful disposition whether that be to return it to the holder or to confiscate it for criminal prosecution. So “theft” is not an accurate term. > > Unlike joyriding in a car, there is no crime in temporarily keeping someone else’s other property for longer than agreed, that I can think of. _Walks up to stranger_ “Hey can I see your wallet a second. It’s for a… err… science project” _Hands over wallet_ “Thanks!” _Walks off_ Sounds like theft to me ---
**Author:** ![ZonexandScout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zonexandscout/32/544_2.png) [@ZonexandScout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZonexandScout)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proving-real-id-if-accused-of-fake/827357/36 "2019-01-08T14:33:18Z")
In NC, the ABC (state-controlled liquor sales) store clerks WILL not only keep your ID, but will call the police if: 1. The ID appears to them to be counterfeit or altered; or 2. You are underage. I’ve witnessed this many times. On one occasion, a 20 YO guy tried to buy a bottle of liquor using an out-of-state license. During the license check, the guy said, “Oh, wait! I have to be 21 here, right? It’s only 18 in my state. Sorry!” Didn’t help. The clerk slipped the license into his cash drawer and phoned the police immediately. I didn’t hang around to see what happened. So, it would actually be a big deal if the clerk believed that the ID was no good and the police would definitely have to be called to sort it out. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proving-real-id-if-accused-of-fake/827357/37 "2019-01-08T14:38:31Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proving-real-id-if-accused-of-fake/827357/38 "2019-01-08T15:39:38Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > A friend was once searching her 17 year old daughter’s bedroom. She found a PA driver’s license with her daughter’s picture and a date of birth that made her 21. It looked legit. > > She kept the DL and later showed it to me. I compared it to my PA DL and couldn’t find any reason to think it a forgery. We took it to a bar owned by a friend of mine and showed it to him. He used a black light, a very bright white light, and a magnifying glass; he judged the license to be real. > > When confronted, the daughter refused to discuss the situation. My guess is the DL was real. There most certainly was a piece of fake ID with a false birthdate on it that was used to get the real ID. When I went to college, as a freshman, somebody was selling blank baptismal certificates. I bought one and filled it out and used that to get an official State of California ID card with the date making me 21. ---
**Author:** ![dorvann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df705f/32.png) [@dorvann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dorvann)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proving-real-id-if-accused-of-fake/827357/39 "2019-01-08T16:10:46Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Of course, it would first be up to the prosecutor to _prove_ that it’s a fake ID, as opposed to a movie prop or anything else. > > Given that the bar bouncer hasn’t proven anything, I doubt they have the right to confiscate anything. Even if the ID was a made as a movie prop, if someone presented to a bouncer as a real ID wouldn’t that still constitute the crime of using a false ID? ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2019, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proving-real-id-if-accused-of-fake/827357/40 "2019-01-08T16:40:51Z")
Ultimately - admission to a bar, selling liquor, whatever - the law may require that the person check ID. The law may even list approved ID (or state something like “government issued with photo, date of birth”.) The person selling liquor (or whatever) or his employer is liable if they sell and the person turns out to be under age. So they must be satisfied the ID satisfies the criteria they must meet. if they are not satisfied, erring on the side of caution is the safest route. “I don’t selling you a case of beer, you yell at me. I sell you beer and you are under age, I get charged, fired, criminal record and possible jail or big fine. Decisions, decisions…” I have never heard of any situation where the checker is obliged to keep or destroy that ID, however. This applies to plenty of other situations. you must provide ID to board an airplane, you must provide ID to open a bank account. Someone I know was travelling after recently moving to a new state, and her temporary driver’s license was a piece of paper (and DMV takes your previous license). With some non-government ID, she was allowed to board but TSA put her through the full pat-down process. In every case, the person viewing the ID has the opton to refuse it, and you have the option (sometimes) to ask to talk to their boss. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proving-real-id-if-accused-of-fake/827357.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proving-real-id-if-accused-of-fake/827357.md?page=3)