# proving the facts - the great moon hoax.

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proving-the-facts-the-great-moon-hoax/288898>\
**Category:** Factual Questions\
**Created:** [February 7, 2005, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proving-the-facts-the-great-moon-hoax/288898 "2005-02-07T23:40:08Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 2

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**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\
**Post date:** [February 8, 2005, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proving-the-facts-the-great-moon-hoax/288898/21 "2005-02-08T01:10:56Z")

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> [@scr4](#):
>
> Like the _Buran_ orbiter? 😃

Well…Still, the way I see it, if you want to have a man live in space, you talk to the Russians. If you want to put a man on another body, you talk to the Americans. Even with the problems both countries’ space programs have had.

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**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\
**Post date:** [February 8, 2005, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proving-the-facts-the-great-moon-hoax/288898/22 "2005-02-08T01:23:56Z")

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There are two groups of dudes who think the “moon landing was all a hoax”. Group #1 have been flim-flammed by the Government before, and thus simply don’t accept the Moon landing on general principals. They haven’t looked into it much, but they know (with some validity) that “the Guvmint lies” and thus they simply assume that it’s another damn lie. This group- as long as they don’t attend “militia” meetings and such- are not crackpots. They are “once bitten- twice shy” or “super skeptics”. Although you can’t convince them that the Government doesn’t lie (and after all- it _does_) it is possible to convince them that the Moon Landing wasn’t one of many government lies. They can be reasoned with. Tread with caution, but it’s worth doing.

Then there’s the guy who has looked into it carefully. If they still think “it is all a hoax” - they can \*\*NOT \*\*be reasoned with. You are wasting your time. Every proof- no matter how solid- is either “faked, planted or just another lie”.

It seems to me that our OP’s “that guy” falls solidly into Group 2. In which case- give it up. He cannot be convinced and in fact there is something wrong “upstairs”. Sorry. ☹

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**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\
**Post date:** [February 8, 2005, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proving-the-facts-the-great-moon-hoax/288898/23 "2005-02-08T01:45:02Z")

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> [@alphaFemale](#):
>
> how do i make my case?

Invite him here and we’ll take a crack at it. 😉

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**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\
**Post date:** [February 8, 2005, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proving-the-facts-the-great-moon-hoax/288898/24 "2005-02-08T01:51:20Z")

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Ah well, if that is all, why bother? It is a harmless enough belief. If he is nuts in a lot of other ways, I would worry, but maybe this can become that one thing you guys agree to disagree over and gently tease each other with.

Or maybe he is nuts.

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**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\
**Post date:** [February 8, 2005, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proving-the-facts-the-great-moon-hoax/288898/25 "2005-02-08T02:39:19Z")

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Show him this squib from the new issue of _Discover_ magazine:

> [@](#):
>
> That the moon shakes with small quakes has been known since Apollo astronauts deployed seismic stations on the lunar surface. Now a reanalysis of data on nearly 10,000 magnetic tapes from 1969 to 1977 has brought the nature of moonquakes into focus. During those eight years, some 6,000 moonquakes, including dozens not previously detected, rumbled deep within the satellite, say planetary scientists at the Scripps Institute of Oceanography in La Jolla, California.

What are the alternative explanations for this? Are the scientists still continuing a 30-year-old hoax? Is their data fabricated? Are they being punk’d by the government? Why in hell would anyone bother to make this stuff up?

Or if real scientists are doing real science that depends on the Apollo astronauts deploying seismic stations on the moon, then maybe they were there in the first place.

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**Author:** ![glilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/48db29/32.png) [@glilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glilly)\
**Post date:** [February 8, 2005, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proving-the-facts-the-great-moon-hoax/288898/26 "2005-02-08T03:25:22Z")

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Once given this evidence, if he still _BELIEVES_, I would very much like to hear his rebuttals. I just can’t fathom what he’d say.

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**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\
**Post date:** [February 8, 2005, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proving-the-facts-the-great-moon-hoax/288898/27 "2005-02-08T03:38:55Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> Ah well, if that is all, why bother? It is a harmless enough belief.

It wouldn’t be for me. Harmless that is. To me it wouldn’t be much different than believing that the Earth is the back of a giant turtle supported by three elephants.

Seriously, science, physics etc. are the rules of the universe and if you can’t even basically understand and accept them, well, there’s something wrong with you. 😉

One of the best scenes in HBO’s From the Earth to the Moon series was in the first episode, “Can We Do This?” where one of the scientists, when asked this by Kennedy’s science advisor, explains that there’s nothing special about going to the moon. Its simply just a matter of weight, thrust, fuel etc. In other words, if the math works out then yes, of course it can be done (and the math _did_ work out).

Her statement that he said, “its scientifically impossible for men to go to the moon” makes me think he’s not stuck on the ‘evil govt’ aspect. Maybe its the old infamous ‘its impossible for humans to pass thru the Van Allen belt and live’ line. In which case this has been thoroughly debunked.

Check out the [Encyclopedia Astronautica](http://www.astronautix.com/index.html) for tons of facts, figures and day by day diaries of just how hard the Soviets did try to land on the moon (and didn’t give up until 1974!)

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**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\
**Post date:** [February 8, 2005, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proving-the-facts-the-great-moon-hoax/288898/28 "2005-02-08T03:53:30Z")

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> [@alphaFemale](#):
>
> well. i’ve gone and done it. i’ve met the Man Of My Dreams.

So are you still over the moon about him?

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**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\
**Post date:** [February 8, 2005, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proving-the-facts-the-great-moon-hoax/288898/29 "2005-02-08T04:10:01Z")

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> [@Hail Ants](#):
>
> It wouldn’t be for me. Harmless that is. To me it wouldn’t be much different than believing that the Earth is the back of a giant turtle supported by three elephants

But that’s just crazy talk. Have you ever seen a turtle that could balance a flat object on its back? :rolleyes:

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**Author:** ![FyreFiend](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/919ad9/32.png) [@FyreFiend](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FyreFiend)\
**Post date:** [February 8, 2005, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proving-the-facts-the-great-moon-hoax/288898/30 "2005-02-08T05:13:33Z")

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> [@Hail Ants](#):
>
> It wouldn’t be for me. Harmless that is. To me it wouldn’t be much different than believing that the Earth is the back of a giant turtle supported by three elephants.  
> \<snip\>

Four elephants. With only three the load would be too unbalenced and would fall off of Great A’Tuin’s back

😉

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**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\
**Post date:** [February 8, 2005, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proving-the-facts-the-great-moon-hoax/288898/31 "2005-02-08T05:58:39Z")

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> [@DrDeth](#):
>
> This group- as long as they don’t attend “militia” meetings and such- are not crackpots. They are “once bitten- twice shy” or “super skeptics”.

Bah. Skeptics are skeptical of themselves first of all. It seems that the people who doubt the moon landing take themselves totally uncritically.

If this guy doesn’t respond to evidence and logic, he isn’t worth it. There are plenty of sane men out there who would like being with a sane woman.

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**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\
**Post date:** [February 8, 2005, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proving-the-facts-the-great-moon-hoax/288898/32 "2005-02-08T06:22:31Z")

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Naive: everyone is good  
Skeptical: everyone is bad  
Idealistic: everyone is bad except me

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**Author:** ![matt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@matt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt)\
**Post date:** [February 8, 2005, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proving-the-facts-the-great-moon-hoax/288898/33 "2005-02-08T07:42:10Z")

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> [@NattoGuy](#):
>
> How could the Soviets expose the American victory as a fraud if they couldn’t go to the moon themselves? About the only thing the Soviets could have done would have been to make a claim that would top the moon landing but couldn’t be disproven by the Americans. The only possible thing would have been to claim a Mars landing, but not even an isolated peasantry would be fool enough to believe that in the 60’s. I think. People constantly surprise me.

There’s the consideration of radio signals and orbits. The Moon goes round the Earth around every 28 days because of its distance from the Earth. The Earth rotates every 24 hours, so various radio receivers on Earth will be able to receive the Apollo signals at any one time. By detecting when the signals are cut off as a receiver drops below the horizon, and re-established when a receiver comes over the horizon, you can work out the period of the orbiting source and therefore how far away it is.

I can’t think of any credible way to fake a source of radio signals coming from the Moon. If they were coming from somewhere closer such an Earth orbit satellite, the signals source would go around the Earth slower than the Moon. The Soviet Union would have spotted this, and I have no doubt they were looking.

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**Author:** ![Fridgemagnet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/22d042/32.png) [@Fridgemagnet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fridgemagnet)\
**Post date:** [February 8, 2005, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proving-the-facts-the-great-moon-hoax/288898/34 "2005-02-08T12:07:31Z")

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You can’t argue with belief. Especially insane ones.

How does he tie in the moon hoax with the grassy knoll?

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**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\
**Post date:** [February 8, 2005, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proving-the-facts-the-great-moon-hoax/288898/35 "2005-02-08T12:38:14Z")

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Aws others have pointed out, you cannot argue with belief. A discussion with the average Moon Hoax theorist goes like this;

**Theorist** : I don’t believe it.  
**You** : Here’s proof.  
**Theorist** : It’s fake, and here’s a heap of basic misunderstandings of technology and science that prove it.  
**You** : Sorry, they are all wrong because…  
**Theorist** : Well, that’s just the easy stuff. You’ve not disproved all the solid facts that show it’s a hoax.  
**You** : What are those solid fact then?  
**Theorist** : _silence_  
**You** : Well?  
**Theorist** : Look, I don’t understand the science here, so rather than admit some people may be smarter than me and have spent a lifetime on the subject, I’m just going to declare it impossible!  
**You** : ???

Either that or they go deeper and deeper into minor details demanding explanations until, unless you were an Apollo technician with all the handbooks to hand, you can’t possibly answer them. _(“At what rate did the spacesuit cooling system expel water as vapour? I think they would have run out within an hour of landing in the moon.”)_ At which point they declare their argument won. _(Ah ha! Told you! Your failure to address this obvious problem shows that the moonlanding was impossible!")_

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**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\
**Post date:** [February 8, 2005, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proving-the-facts-the-great-moon-hoax/288898/36 "2005-02-08T12:53:20Z")

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Another point if it was all faked, why bother to create a “fake” crisis during Apollo 13? Were the “actors” on strike? :smack:

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**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\
**Post date:** [February 8, 2005, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proving-the-facts-the-great-moon-hoax/288898/37 "2005-02-08T13:33:32Z")

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> [@BwanaBob](#):
>
> Another point if it was all faked, why bother to create a “fake” crisis during Apollo 13? Were the “actors” on strike? :smack:

That was a **Hollywood film**. I **saw** it! The actors were well known stars like Tom Cruise and Kevin Bacon. This shows how much the Government is laughing at us. They could have used unknown actors, but THEY JUST DON’T CARE!!

Also I saw a secret film about how the Government faked the Mars landings. But the astronauts were in trouble when the fake spaceship blew up and had to run for their lives and they all got caught except one and he kept going AND MADE IT TO HIS OWN FUNERAL AND NOBODY BELEIVES ME BUT i DID SEE IT AND i HAVE TO GO NOW…

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**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\
**Post date:** [February 8, 2005, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proving-the-facts-the-great-moon-hoax/288898/38 "2005-02-08T14:16:29Z")

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> [@FyreFiend](#):
>
> Four elephants. With only three the load would be too unbalenced and would fall off of Great A’Tuin’s back
> 
> 😉

Reminds me of some story I heard about the Hindu guru asked by a young boy: what supports the world? “An elephant.” “But what supports that elephant?” “Another elephant.” “But what does that elephant stand on?” “My son, it’s elephants all the way down.”

Alternatively:

[Ali G to Buzz Aldrin, or as he called him, 'Buzz Lightyear]“I know this must get on your tits, but what does you say to all the conspiracy theorists who say that the moon don’t exist?”[/Ali G]

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**Author:** ![jester21](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ed655f/32.png) [@jester21](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jester21)\
**Post date:** [February 8, 2005, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proving-the-facts-the-great-moon-hoax/288898/39 "2005-02-08T14:25:33Z")

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I fall into the catagorey of Skeptical Not-Quite-Believer.

I think it’s completely _possible_ that the gov staged the whole thing.

Do i think it’s _impossible_ for man to land on the moon? of course not.

I’m jest not totally convinced that we _DID_.

However, I don’t really care that much, and havn’t looked into it.

I saw the fox show, and most of the arguments came off lame. Granted, speeding up the film, DID give it a look that it coulda been staged.

anyway, the only arguement, that i havn’t seen refuted (probably cuz i havn’t bothered to look) is the theory that there is too much radiation in DEEP space (beyond the protections provided by the Earth) and that we could not put enough “armor” (can’t think of the correct word) on a craft to protect the Guinea Pigs… i mean, Astronauts. (also said argument said that the ISS and shuttle flights all stay w/in the protected zone)

Is there any truth to that? (the more radiation theory) and how DO we protect them from it? Or is it a non-issue?  
(I actually had this arguement w/ a buddy, but as w/ most of my ideas, he mostly implies i’m an idiot for (trying) to have original thought… even when most times HE’S the one who’s wrong… and if he can’t prove he’s right, he’ll fall back to “fuck you”… I’ve mostly learned not to have “intellectual conversations” w/ him… but he’s moved the FU to my not agreeing w/ his opinions of movies too… so I don’t think i’ll be hanging out w/ him much anytime soon… ok… therepy session is over… who do i pay?)

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**Author:** ![Loopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loopus/32/15343_2.png) [@Loopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopus)\
**Post date:** [February 8, 2005, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proving-the-facts-the-great-moon-hoax/288898/40 "2005-02-08T14:40:38Z")

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> [@jester21](#):
>
> anyway, the only arguement, that i havn’t seen refuted (probably cuz i havn’t bothered to look) is the theory that there is too much radiation in DEEP space (beyond the protections provided by the Earth) and that we could not put enough “armor” (can’t think of the correct word) on a craft to protect the Guinea Pigs… i mean, Astronauts. (also said argument said that the ISS and shuttle flights all stay w/in the protected zone)

From the aforelinked [Bad Astronomy Page](http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/tv/foxapollo.html#radiation):

> [@](#):
>
> This is complete and utter nonsense. The van Allen belts are regions above the Earth’s surface where the Earth’s magnetic field has trapped particles of the solar wind. An unprotected man would indeed get a lethal dose of radiation, _if he stayed there long enough_. Actually, the spaceship traveled through the belts pretty quickly, getting past them in an hour or so. There simply wasn’t enough time to get a lethal dose, and, as a matter of fact, the metal hull of the spaceship did indeed block most of the radiation. For a detailed explanation of all this, my fellow Mad Scientist [William Wheaton has a page with the technical data about the doses received by the astronauts](http://spider.ipac.caltech.edu/staff/waw/mad/mad19.html). Another excellent page about this, that also gives a history of NASA radiation testing, is from the [Biomedical Results of Apollo](http://lsda.jsc.nasa.gov/books/apollo/S2ch3.htm) site. An interesting read!

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