# Proximate cause of Islamic terrorism today **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2010, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proximate-cause-of-islamic-terrorism-today/540753 "2010-05-25T21:30:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2010, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proximate-cause-of-islamic-terrorism-today/540753/41 "2010-05-26T23:24:58Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So this is the death rattle of the ottoman empire? Is the problem that we chopped up the ottoman empire? (BTW why did we chop up the Ottoman Empire and leave everyone else intact?) Germany and Austria-Hungary got chopped up too. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proximate-cause-of-islamic-terrorism-today/540753/42 "2010-05-27T03:31:15Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > And by the way, something can’t be rational but not reasonable. Rational _mean_s reasonable. Actually, rational does not mean reasonable. They both clearly come from related words–one meaning to construct logical arguments and the other meaning to engage the power of reason in one’s mind–but they have distinct etymologies and they clearly have distinct meanings. Rational and reasonable can be used as synonyms in certain contexts, but there is not a necessary equivalence. One meaning of _reasonable_ is “acting in moderation.” I suspect that you would not accuse the rioters of acting in moderation. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proximate-cause-of-islamic-terrorism-today/540753/43 "2010-05-27T03:35:19Z")
[ > [@](#): > > 1 a : having reason or understanding b : relating to, based on, or agreeable to reason : reasonable \ \ ]([http://mw4.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rational](http://mw4.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rational))😛 ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proximate-cause-of-islamic-terrorism-today/540753/44 "2010-05-27T03:58:09Z")
Since I have already stipulated that they can be used as synonyms in certain contexts, did you have a point? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proximate-cause-of-islamic-terrorism-today/540753/45 "2010-05-27T04:07:03Z")
That if something is rational (that is, in accord with reason) then it has to be reasonable. You can’t ever have something that’s in accord with reason unless [you’re using it to mean “moderate and not excessive.”](http://www.merriam-webster.com/netdict/reasonable) That is, you can be reasonable but not rational, however you cannot be rational but not reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2010, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proximate-cause-of-islamic-terrorism-today/540753/46 "2010-05-27T04:30:27Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Terrorism is not aimed solely at the Israel-Palestine issue. For example, it is just as prevelant in the Afganistan war, and in the conflict with India, neither of which has anything to do with Palestine. > > Islam has a long history of the use of religiously-motivated killings for political effect as a mechanism of assymetric warfare, mostly aimed at other factions within the world of Islam. > > For example, some sections of the Ismailis were famous for using terror tactics against the majority Sunnis - the so-called “Hashshashin” (from whom we deriave the English word “assassin”). > > [Order of Assassins - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashshashin) > > This suggests that the techniques are indigenous to the region and are simply being used against contemporary enemies, whomever they may be. This. Add a feudal mentality to a religion based on warrior prophet and all it needs is a mechanism that perpetuates an unquestioned belief. The basic tenets of the religion are repeated 5 times a a day and this heavily reinforces that mindset. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2010, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proximate-cause-of-islamic-terrorism-today/540753/47 "2010-05-29T01:59:19Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > This entirely escapes. I assume he meant [Aum Shinrikyo](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aum_Shinrikyo), who were responsible for several nerve gas attacks in Japan in the 1990’s, killing a couple dozen people in all. It’s not a great example of a terrorist organization — they were trying to use the attacks to shift attention _away_ from themselves, rather than to create political pressure — but there are lots of other examples where that came from. The IRA, the FLQ, some neo-Nazi groups, … ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proximate-cause-of-islamic-terrorism-today/540753/48 "2010-05-31T04:51:02Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > Or Uganda, Finn is absolutely right here. Yeah, I agree it makes sense. If Zionism was going to build Israel, Palestine was the most likely rock on which it would be built. > [@](#): > > I sometimes think that if the Ottoman regime hadn’t been broken up for blinkered Empire interests, this whole history could have gone rather differently. Do you think the Caliph would have broken off a piece of his empire and given it to the Jews? How would that have worked? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proximate-cause-of-islamic-terrorism-today/540753/49 "2010-05-31T04:52:24Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > “Ingrained in their society” makes it sound like a moral judgment on the ME, which is not how I see the issue. > > To make an analogy, I would say that, for example, the use of ariel bombardment as a technique of Western warfare would probably have happened even if the issue of German nationalism had not dominated the first half of 20th century Europe. Whether that means that ‘destroying whole cities from the air is in some way engrained in European society’ or not, I dunno. So is the use of terrorism somehow logical on the part of the terrorists? How do we make it illogical for them? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proximate-cause-of-islamic-terrorism-today/540753/50 "2010-05-31T04:56:58Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Show me an organized group that used assassinations as their preferred method of warmaking. Ninjas 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proximate-cause-of-islamic-terrorism-today/540753/51 "2010-05-31T05:05:40Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > [However, Muslim violence towards and hatred of Jews, especially Jews who didn’t accept dhimmi status, was not a reaction to Balfour.](http://books.google.com/books?id=W0EbKFRxrT4C&dq=The+Jews+of+Islam&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=wHT9S9G_J4GKlweTvYmcCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CDkQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q&f=false) That is a 250 page book you just linked to. Can you provide a slightly more pinpoint cite? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proximate-cause-of-islamic-terrorism-today/540753/52 "2010-05-31T05:14:20Z")
It provides a look at quite a bit of history. That’s the point. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proximate-cause-of-islamic-terrorism-today/540753/53 "2010-05-31T05:15:00Z")
[quote=“wmfellows, post:39, topic:540753”] [quote=“FinnAgain, post:38, topic:540753”] Wahabism existed before the state of Israel was created. The Muslim Brotherhood existed before the state of Israel was created. Khomenism emerged as a reaction to British and American policies in Iran. > [@](#): > > Mate, you’re right, but this doesn’ t address the issue. > > And you’re still throwing in cultural conservatist movements (however repugnant to our values), with terror. I don’t think we can say that one equals the other, ipso facto. > … > Mmmm. Well I find this meaningless. It’s like saying that Catholic rigidity formed the soil for Irish nationalist terrorism by the IRA. Well, maybe, by several removes, but it strikes me as a bankrupt analysis. Islamism (or Catholic identity movements, or .. well any bloody identity movement) can go in a lot of directions. > … > You were the one citing Muslim Brotherhood et al as some kind of precusors (in my read, maybe I am wrong), implying a direct relation. > … > Without Israel (in the particular way Israel came to be), I don’t see a necessary unifying driver (especially as since I work mostly in Africa and African Muslims don’t really get hyped up about this, although the problems of the occupied territories cerntainly feed into a narrative. It sounds like you are saying that terrorism is not the inevitable result of wahabism, the Muslim Brotherhood and Khomenism. Would you go so far as to say that terrorism would have been unlikely to develop from these things without a catalyst like Israel. If another catalyst would have done it can you give an example of some other catalyst that might have provoked the same reactions? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proximate-cause-of-islamic-terrorism-today/540753/54 "2010-05-31T10:49:29Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > No, it’s the fact that Jews felt a nationalistic connection to that particular historical location and would be convinced to move there. “Hey, everybody move to Guam!” would not have had the same resonance. Yeah? Well, tough shit. Africa would be in a right pickle if everyone who had origins there decided they wanted to return to their “homeland”. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2010, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proximate-cause-of-islamic-terrorism-today/540753/55 "2010-05-31T13:27:19Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So is the use of terrorism somehow logical on the part of the terrorists? How do we make it illogical for them? It’s logical for the terrorists because it suits the methods of recruitment and organization that are familiar to them and accepted in their society. In Western society, recruitment etc. that we are most familiar with is essentially state-run and bureaucratic. In the ME, the state-run bureaucracies are often of lesser importance than smaller-scale groups organized around sects or schools. These provide both learning and in many cases social welfare - see for example Hamas, or the way Wahhabism is spread through Madrassas. How to undermine that? IMO, by replacing the “good” aspects - social welfare, education, etc. - with other organizations. This would of course take lots of money, and not ne as “sexy” as hunting down terrorists. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/proximate-cause-of-islamic-terrorism-today/540753.md?page=2)