# Prper Use of "Whence" **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 21, 2008, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prper-use-of-whence/442281 "2008-03-21T22:35:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prper-use-of-whence/442281/1 "2008-03-21T22:35:25Z")
I guess this word isn’t used much (in American english), but I like it. Is it prper to say something like: “the temperature of the solution increases, whence the reaction proceeds…”? Am I mangling the Queen’s English? ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prper-use-of-whence/442281/2 "2008-03-21T23:13:36Z")
I thought “whence” meant “from where”. Am I wrong? ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prper-use-of-whence/442281/3 "2008-03-21T23:25:34Z")
Yep, “from where.” It really bugged me when in the first Lord of the Rings film, Elrond said “The Ring must be cast back into the firey chasm **from whence** it came.” ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2008, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prper-use-of-whence/442281/4 "2008-03-21T23:58:38Z")
There is some [debate](http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-fro2.htm) about it. > [@](#): > > And even a brief look at historical sources shows that from whence has been common since the thirteenth century. It has been used by Shakespeare, Defoe (in the opening of Robinson Crusoe: and > [@](#): > > Though Dr Johnson objected to it in his Dictionary of 1755, calling it “A vicious mode of speech” (he meant it was reprehensible, not depraved or savage), most objections to it are no earlier than the twentieth century. One reason may be that its critics are unaware of its long pedigree. There is more, but I don’t wish to quote too much. ---
**Author:** ![Sunrazor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sunrazor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunrazor)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2008, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prper-use-of-whence/442281/5 "2008-03-22T00:10:12Z")
The Oxford English Dictionary, the standard for English scholars, shows “whence” used both with “from” and without. I’m not able to suss out any usage pattern that shows when to use “from” and when not to. OED Online requires a subscription. ---
**Author:** ![Ignatz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/3be4f8/32.png) [@Ignatz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignatz)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2008, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prper-use-of-whence/442281/6 "2008-03-23T18:46:01Z")
[QUOTE=Sunrazor] The Oxford English Dictionary, the standard for English scholars, shows “whence” used both with “from” and without. I’m not able to suss out any usage pattern that shows when to use “from” and when not to. OED Online requires a subscription. [/QUOTE] Lacking any guidelines when one is “better” than the other and if one can use both, it seems a waste of time, breath, and ink to include the “from”. (I choose to waste it on the optional apostrophe before the “and”.) ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2008, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prper-use-of-whence/442281/7 "2008-03-23T19:05:25Z")
I. Interrogative uses (now replaced by where . . . from) 1. from what place 2. from what source, origin, or cause II. Relative or conjunctive uses. 3. from which place; from or out of which. 4. gen. and transf. From which source or origin (as a product); from which cause (as a result); from which fact or circumstance (as an inference). III. 5. as n. (nonce-use.) That from which something comes or arises; place of origin; source. Just going by the examples from the OED, I can’t really see a pattern as to when “whence” is used versus when “from whence” is used. I think it’s just one of those things that is technically incorrect but has been in use for so long that no one cares anymore (maybe like the way people add the definite article “the” to “hoi polloi”). They have examples from Shakespeare of “from whence” so obviously it’s not a recent bungling of the language. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2008, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prper-use-of-whence/442281/8 "2008-03-24T14:30:15Z")
Waitaminnit…long term usage makes “from” whence ok? Robbery and murder have been in common usage for much longer and we still don’t cotton to _those_ activities. “From” whence is _always_ wrong, I don’t recall Al Pope granting special dispensation for it. You wouldn’t say “from thence” or “from hence” now, woud you? Not unless you wanted the highwaymen to peg you for an outlander and put a grey goose shaft through your wishbone on a whim. Irregardless and nucular are wrong too. You can say 'em if you want, and you’ll be understood, but you’ll also peg yourself as semiliterate. Not that there’s anything wrong with that. I mean, unless you want to risk being tuned out by pedantic nippleheads. ---
**Author:** ![Mindfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mindfield/32/19759_2.png) [@Mindfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mindfield)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2008, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prper-use-of-whence/442281/9 "2008-03-24T14:54:34Z")
This is where I freakin’ love my iPhone. Using WeDict and consulting with numerous dictionary plugins, I’ve come up with: **English Etymology:** M.E. whennes, with adverbial genitive -s, from O.E. hwanone, related to hwəinne (see when). **Webster’s 1913 Dictionary:** Whence \Whence, adv. [OE, Whennes, whens (with adverbial s, properly a genitive ending; – see {-wards}), also whenne, whanene, AS. hwanan, hwanon, hwonan, hwanone; akin to D. when. See {When}, and cf. {Hence}, {Thence}.] 1. From what place; hence, from what or which source, origin, antecedent, premise, or the like; how; – used interrogatively. _Whence hath this man his wisdom?_ --Matt. XIII 54. _Whence and what art thou?_ --Milton 1. From what or which place, source, material, cause, etc.; the place, source, etc., from which; --used relatively _Grateful to acknowledge whence his good Descends._ --Milton Note: All the words of this class, whence, where, whither, whereabouts, etc., are occasionally used as pronouns by a harsh construction. _O, how unlike the place from whence they fell?_ --Milton Note: From whence, though a pleonasm, is fully authorized by the use of good writers. _Of whence come wars and fightings among you?_ --James IV. 1. Of whence, also a pleonasm, has become obsolete. ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2008, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prper-use-of-whence/442281/10 "2008-03-24T21:46:07Z")
All right, that tears it. Whence is a word I would dust off once or twice a year, because it seemed quaint and somewhat charming. Now, I see, no matter which way I use it, somebody will take me for a yokel. With that in mind, it isn’t worth the trouble. Now, I da’sn’t use it again unless I find a whent on the sidewalk, and chance to get a bargain on another from a whentmonger. Nay, forget it. I’m not a wealthy codger, and I can’t afford even one fire-sale priced whent. All for the sake of “Prper Use.” :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2008, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prper-use-of-whence/442281/11 "2008-03-24T21:50:05Z")
[QUOTE=ralph124c] I guess this word isn’t used much (in American english), but I like it. Is it prper to say something like: “the temperature of the solution increases, whence the reaction proceeds..”? Am I mangling the Queen’s English? [/QUOTE] I think “hence” would fit better in term of meaning and usage. “The temperature of the soln increases, hence the rxn proceeds.” as to the rest–got me. I’m no scholar. From whence is used elsewhere (Tom Lehrer maybe?) but it’s a bit like a double negative. Could we call it a colloquialism and be done with it? ---
**Author:** ![Bambi\_Hassenpfeffer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Bambi\_Hassenpfeffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bambi_Hassenpfeffer)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2008, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prper-use-of-whence/442281/12 "2008-03-24T22:26:48Z")
[QUOTE=AskNott] Now, I da’sn’t use it again [/QUOTE] A word I have only ever heard from my mother. A Hoosier, like you. So to use _whence_ properly: “Whence come dast and dasn’t?” ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2008, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prper-use-of-whence/442281/13 "2008-03-24T22:57:25Z")
Well, I learned something here. I thought the only proper use of “whence” was when one wants to sound like a pretentious douche. See also “methinks”. ---
**Author:** ![Miss\_Purl\_McKnittington](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@Miss\_Purl\_McKnittington](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miss_Purl_McKnittington)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2008, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prper-use-of-whence/442281/14 "2008-03-25T01:29:52Z")
[QUOTE=Inigo Montoya] Waitaminnit…long term usage makes “from” whence ok? Robbery and murder have been in common usage for much longer and we still don’t cotton to _those_ activities. [/QUOTE] Last time I checked, a proper ellipsis involved spaces and not just a string of periods. Is that abuse tantamount to murder\*, too? All the other rules of the English language are the result of longterm usage, not some sort of council that got together in the 15th century in London and said, “Yeah, let’s go with subject/verb/object for that thingy. What did you call it again, Grahame? A sentence? Funny name for a chicken.” This isn’t France; language changes. Deal with it. [sub]\*Just as an aside, into the 19th century, men could kill each other over a point of honor, and while the law considered it murder toward the end of the period, plenty of people were happy to look the other way. So for a more than a few centuries, Western civilization did condone murder.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Sunrazor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sunrazor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunrazor)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2008, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prper-use-of-whence/442281/15 "2008-03-25T03:38:17Z")
[QUOTE=Mindfield] This is where I freakin’ love my iPhone. (snip) **Webster’s 1913 Dictionary:** Whence \Whence, adv. [OE, Whennes, whens (with adverbial s, properly a genitive ending; – see {-wards}), also whenne, whanene, AS. hwanan, hwanon, hwonan, hwanone; akin to D. when. See {When}, and cf. {Hence}, {Thence}.] 1. From what place; hence, from what or which source, origin, antecedent, premise, or the like; how; – used interrogatively. [/QUOTE] **Webster’s**!? I quote the OED, the friggin’ standard for English language scholars in Great Britain, the United State, Candada, Australia and South Africa, and you dare to quote _Webster’s_!? Why not haul out the Farmer’s Almanac and some Ben Franklin and Will Rogers quips while you’re at it!? God, I’m becoming downright insufferable. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2008, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prper-use-of-whence/442281/16 "2008-03-25T03:50:45Z")
If “from whence” is good enough for Shakespeare and Milton, it’s good enough for me. ---
**Author:** ![Mindfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mindfield/32/19759_2.png) [@Mindfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mindfield)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2008, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prper-use-of-whence/442281/17 "2008-03-25T13:09:02Z")
[QUOTE=Sunrazor] **Webster’s**!? I quote the OED, the friggin’ standard for English language scholars in Great Britain, the United State, Candada, Australia and South Africa, and you dare to quote _Webster’s_!? Why not haul out the Farmer’s Almanac and some Ben Franklin and Will Rogers quips while you’re at it!? God, I’m becoming downright insufferable. 😃 [/QUOTE] Look, Noah was a good guy who did the best he could with what he had. I mean, _you_ try gettin’ yourself some book learnin’ while your country’s trying to secede and you’re surrounded by British troops alternately shooting at you and breaking for tea and crumpets and toasting the queen in cockney rhyming slang. Give the man some credit! Plus, I don’t have an OED dictionary file for WeDict yet… **Inigo** - Much as it bugs me sometimes, some constructions, even ones that used to be wrong, become legitimized (and sometimes, given enough time, codified) by their popular and generally accepted usage. I find this is often the case where certain constructions either sound wrong due to a mistaken understanding of the word’s definition, or in the case of acronyms, sound incomplete or harsh when used in a sentence, so people “fix” it. If enough of them put lipstick on the pig, doesn’t wipe off. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2008, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prper-use-of-whence/442281/18 "2008-03-25T15:47:12Z")
[QUOTE=Miss Purl McKnittington] Last time I checked, a proper ellipsis involved spaces and not just a string of periods. Is that abuse tantamount to murder\*, too? [/QUOTE] _Tales of Brave Ellipses_ and all that. And I _was_ actually thinking of that ridiculous L’Académie française when I was posting. I’m all conflicted. I blame the fluidity of language and the increasing ossification of my own mind. Think I’ll go on a tristate misspeling spree. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2008, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prper-use-of-whence/442281/19 "2008-03-25T16:01:07Z")
One of my favorite things in life is when I get a chance to use “whence?” as a single word sentence. Like “WHY?” or “WHAT?” And then look at the expressions on people faces. I suggest everybody try it. It doesn’t happen often but on rare happy occasions. Friend: “This is my brother, he just got off the airplane from #MumbleMumble#” Me: “Whence?” ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2008, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prper-use-of-whence/442281/20 "2008-03-25T23:53:06Z")
[QUOTE=Sunrazor] **Webster’s**!? I quote the OED, the friggin’ standard for English language scholars in Great Britain, the United State, Candada, Australia and South Africa, and you dare to quote _Webster’s_!? Why not haul out the Farmer’s Almanac and some Ben Franklin and Will Rogers quips while you’re at it!? God, I’m becoming downright insufferable. 😃 [/QUOTE] This is like that whole Cecil Adams/World Book thing, right? It’s got me laughing. 😃 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/prper-use-of-whence/442281.md?page=2)