# pseudotriton ruber ruber: ignorant and intellectually dishonest is no way to go through life **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 31, 2011, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pseudotriton-ruber-ruber-ignorant-and-intellectually-dishonest-is-no-way-to-go-through-life/594768 "2011-08-31T17:31:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pseudotriton-ruber-ruber-ignorant-and-intellectually-dishonest-is-no-way-to-go-through-life/594768/1 "2011-08-31T17:31:43Z")
Just a few things, prr: 1. If you’re going to title a thread, “[Jesus Christ as your fantasy dinner guest](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=621175),” you ought not to be upset when people stick with the example of Jesus in your little thought experiment. 2. If you’re going to claim that you’re getting flak about your thought experiment because people are getting “all defensive about [their] poor picked-on little God,” you might want to be able to produce something, anything, in the thread that demonstrates that religion, not logic, was what the poster was pissed at you about. 3. Asking immediately afterwards, “How am I “blaming” anything on religion[?]” is really pretty stupid, as well as disingenuous. 4. Not bothering to define your rules at all well until post #90 could have been just sloppiness. Taking issue with people on the basis of those hidden rules up to that point in the thread may have simply been cluelessness. If that had been the extent of your jerkishness, rather than increasingly looking like part and parcel of a 5. You really are ignorant about basic probability. 6. You had no interest in rectifying your weakness. If I explain in post 108 that _"P(invite Jesus|Jesus lived) = “the probability that you invite Jesus, given that he was in fact a real person,”_ then complaining about “your (intentionally?) cryptic formula for presenting” that probability in post 137 is simply being obtuse. Especially because that conditional probability was the only math I used beyond stuff like “P(Jesus lived)” and addition and multiplication. Even you should have been able to handle that. And complaining that I’m using probability when it’s at the crux of my problem with what you’re doing, is pretty sad. 1. If you’d bothered to state a clear purpose to your thought experiment, that would’ve helped too. In the absence of such a statement, the obvious goal was to invite Jesus to dinner if and only if he existed. I spent a lot of time banging my head against the roadblocks you threw up in the way of this, and trying to explain to you why they were roadblocks. (Hence the probability.) In the end, this was the best you could do: > [@](#): > > Don’t you know what a thought experiment is? You need some rules and guidelines, and I’m supplying them, as best I can. If you really need an answer, let’s suppose that God exists, as improbable a thought experiment as that is, but 's never paid much attention all this gabble about Jesus or Judaism or Christianity–he’s all-powerful, can do anything, but he’s specifying that he’ll bring back anyone you want for a dinner guest as long he actually existed and you describe him accurately on all counts. He happens to be a very pedantic and demanding dick of a God. Can you wrap your mind around that concept? Nice of you to tell us this up front, instead of enticing people into what looked like an interesting parlor game, and finding out by bits and pieces that the object was…well, damned if I know even now, but apparently to frustrate and annoy everyone who got suckered into the thread, regardless of their religious leanings. Ultimately, it just seemed that you had this thought experiment about Jesus and other historical figures, and you wanted it to work the way you wanted it to work (basically, to make sure Jesus didn’t get invited to the dinner, whether or not he existed), for reasons that you weren’t interested in sharing with anyone. Would have been nice if you’d made that clear upfront. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pseudotriton-ruber-ruber-ignorant-and-intellectually-dishonest-is-no-way-to-go-through-life/594768/2 "2011-08-31T17:55:02Z")
A few more things: > [@Jesus Christ as your fantasy dinner guest](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/jesus-christ-as-your-fantasy-dinner-guest/593476/139): > > instead of accepting that Jesus is a hard person to ID reliably, you go into a snit (and start throwing incomprehensible and irrelevant math at me). As I’ve already mentioned, the math wasn’t exactly incomprehensible, unless you’re a retard. But the thing that a number of us in the thread had a problem with is that Jesus, if he existed, was _quite easy_ to ID reliably: he was the person who was the basis of the Gospel accounts about his life. If there was one and only one such person, then bingo! Jesus shows up at dinner. If the whole thing was a myth, we get nobody. If ‘Jesus’ was actually a composite of two or more itinerant Palestinian preachers from that time period, then we also get nobody. This would be your goal, right? To get Jesus as a dinner guest if he was real, but not if he wasn’t? That was certainly how you set it up in the OP: > [@](#): > > let’s assume you could have as many ideal dinner guests as you would like, but with the following stipulations: you must name them all at once, with a full description (so you don’t get Abraham Lincoln, the dentist), as many as you like but all on one list, AND if even one of them comes up “No such person, sorry” the entire list gets cancelled. > > Would anyone put Jesus on their list? Personally, assuming the language thing could be worked around, I’d love to have Jesus over for dinner, I’d love to shoot the shit with him, ask him loads of questions, but there is no fucking way I’d gamble getting such a fantastic gift as having a limitless series of fascinating dinner guests on anyone who may not have existed, so, sorry, JC is right out. Is there a Christian so dead certain that Jesus walked this earth that they would choose Jesus under the (improbable) circumstances I have described? Underlining mine. Obviously there’s some room to interpret ‘full description’ but the whole point, as you described it, was that you were gambling your ability to invite the rest of your historical-figure guests _on whether Jesus actually existed._ But instead, your point seems to have been to come up with a way of maximizing the likelihood of excluding historical figures from eras where accurate, detailed, contemporaneous accounts were the exception. As you say, > [@](#): > > I’m NOT claiming that more facts are better, I’m claiming that the fewer rock-solid biographical facts you offer, the better your chances are IOW, you don’t want a ‘full description,’ and that’ll actually backfire! > [@](#): > > Give too many details, and you risk having some small point wrong; give too few, and you risk asking for multiple people who qualify. So you’re creating this very small ‘sweet spot’ where you have just enough facts to exclude anyone else, without having enough to make it nearly certain that one of your ‘facts’ might be wrong. Seems like the goal is to not invite Jesus at all. Is there a point to this? ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pseudotriton-ruber-ruber-ignorant-and-intellectually-dishonest-is-no-way-to-go-through-life/594768/3 "2011-08-31T21:12:15Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Is there a point to this? I think he thinks he proved something important. I don’t agree. I think your two posts in this thread are well-written and well-argued, and I agree with pretty much all of what you wrote. It appears to me that there is no strong disagreement with your posts, and that prr has decided not to engage. ---
**Author:** ![Bri2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/48db29/32.png) [@Bri2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bri2k)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pseudotriton-ruber-ruber-ignorant-and-intellectually-dishonest-is-no-way-to-go-through-life/594768/4 "2011-08-31T21:14:07Z")
Just what the heck is a “ruber ruber”? Bri2k ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pseudotriton-ruber-ruber-ignorant-and-intellectually-dishonest-is-no-way-to-go-through-life/594768/5 "2011-08-31T21:15:32Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] Is there a point to this? [/QUOTE] I didn’t see any. I think he was going for some sort of ‘gotcha’ and it didn’t pan out. FWIW, I thought you did very well in making your points in that thread…kudos. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pseudotriton-ruber-ruber-ignorant-and-intellectually-dishonest-is-no-way-to-go-through-life/594768/6 "2011-08-31T21:16:49Z")
Pseudotriton ruber ruber is the scientific name of the northern red salamander. Ruber means red. The northern one is really, really red. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pseudotriton-ruber-ruber-ignorant-and-intellectually-dishonest-is-no-way-to-go-through-life/594768/7 "2011-08-31T22:21:46Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I didn’t see any. I think he was going for some sort of ‘gotcha’ and it didn’t pan out. FWIW, I thought you did very well in making your points in that thread…kudos. > > -XT Yes. It was obvious that he was just trying to “trap” Christians into discovering that there isn’t much objective, historical evidence for the existence of JC. It’s the kind of thing we did in 5th grade. We thought we were really smart. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pseudotriton-ruber-ruber-ignorant-and-intellectually-dishonest-is-no-way-to-go-through-life/594768/8 "2011-08-31T22:24:23Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I think he was going for some sort of ‘gotcha’ and it didn’t pan out. Agreed. I gave up on that thread early on. ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pseudotriton-ruber-ruber-ignorant-and-intellectually-dishonest-is-no-way-to-go-through-life/594768/9 "2011-08-31T22:47:41Z")
> [@Crotalus](#): > > Pseudotriton ruber ruber is the scientific name of the northern red salamander. Ruber means red. The northern one is really, really red. And couldn’t they get a real triton? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pseudotriton-ruber-ruber-ignorant-and-intellectually-dishonest-is-no-way-to-go-through-life/594768/10 "2011-08-31T23:17:41Z")
Well, they _could_, but AIUI, the real ones were all insufficiently red. ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pseudotriton-ruber-ruber-ignorant-and-intellectually-dishonest-is-no-way-to-go-through-life/594768/11 "2011-09-01T01:08:15Z")
> [@Jenaroph](#): > > And couldn’t they get a real triton? Come on, man, [Triton](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triton_%28mythology%29)is a mythological creature, like Jesus. 😃 Pseudo is the best you can do. ---
**Author:** ![Rysdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7cd45c/32.png) [@Rysdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysdad)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pseudotriton-ruber-ruber-ignorant-and-intellectually-dishonest-is-no-way-to-go-through-life/594768/12 "2011-09-01T01:10:57Z")
[Gotta admit, he’s kinda cute.](http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/resources/Chatfield_Matthew/Pseudotriton_ruber_schencki.JPG/medium.jpg) (Now, I don’t know if this is a pseudo- or real triton. Maybe it’s a spottylipstriton. I don’t even know if it’s a triton at all. It just came up when I Googled “red salamander.”) ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pseudotriton-ruber-ruber-ignorant-and-intellectually-dishonest-is-no-way-to-go-through-life/594768/13 "2011-09-01T01:17:41Z")
> [@Rysdad](#): > > [Gotta admit, he’s kinda cute.](http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/resources/Chatfield_Matthew/Pseudotriton_ruber_schencki.JPG/medium.jpg) > > (Now, I don’t know if this is a pseudo- or real triton. Maybe it’s a spottylipstriton. I don’t even know if it’s a triton at all. It just came up when I Googled “red salamander.”) That’s your basic Pseudotriton ruber. I can’t tell from the picture if it is P.r. ruber, P.r.nitidus, P.r.schencki, or P.r. vioscai. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pseudotriton-ruber-ruber-ignorant-and-intellectually-dishonest-is-no-way-to-go-through-life/594768/14 "2011-09-01T02:26:35Z")
> [@Crotalus](#): > > That’s your basic Pseudotriton ruber. I can’t tell from the picture if it is P.r. ruber, P.r.nitidus, P.r.schencki, or P.r. vioscai. And you call yourself a Doper. Tsk tsk tsk. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pseudotriton-ruber-ruber-ignorant-and-intellectually-dishonest-is-no-way-to-go-through-life/594768/15 "2011-09-01T15:37:28Z")
I can’t bring myself to read that thread, but if you all let a good PRR pitting die out, I will cut you. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pseudotriton-ruber-ruber-ignorant-and-intellectually-dishonest-is-no-way-to-go-through-life/594768/16 "2011-09-01T15:45:25Z")
Ninja knitting needles. Fuckin’ deadly! ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pseudotriton-ruber-ruber-ignorant-and-intellectually-dishonest-is-no-way-to-go-through-life/594768/17 "2011-09-01T16:03:58Z")
> [@Crotalus](#): > > Pseudotriton ruber ruber is the scientific name of the northern red salamander. Ruber means red. The northern one is really, really red. As opposed to the [Crotalus ruber ruber](http://www.poway.org/Modules/ShowImage.aspx?imageid=519), which is just kind of a dusty pinkish. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pseudotriton-ruber-ruber-ignorant-and-intellectually-dishonest-is-no-way-to-go-through-life/594768/18 "2011-09-01T16:08:01Z")
The whole thing was so silly anyway. If there was a magic genie/time traveler/whatever who was bringing historical figures to your dinner party, how specific would you need to be. “Oh, and I’d also like Jesus. you know who I mean, right?” “Of course, why even ask?” ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pseudotriton-ruber-ruber-ignorant-and-intellectually-dishonest-is-no-way-to-go-through-life/594768/19 "2011-09-01T16:08:33Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > I can’t bring myself to read that thread, but if you all let a good PRR pitting die out, I will cut you. :mad: I’m genuinely puzzled as to why you care how this pit thread goes. He’s been shown to be a recalcitrant debater in all things religious, really not much different from **Der Trihs** and the more energy one spends on arguing with him, or talking about him in general, is less energy one has for something more pleasant. So the goal of this thread isn’t to rehabilitate the man, that’s been shown to be fruitless, and the OP let off the steam he came here to let off, so why shouldn’t it devolve, or perhaps even evolve, into something which people learn from? Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pseudotriton-ruber-ruber-ignorant-and-intellectually-dishonest-is-no-way-to-go-through-life/594768/20 "2011-09-01T16:15:58Z")
> [@Crotalus](#): > > That’s your basic Pseudotriton ruber. I can’t tell from the picture if it is P.r. ruber, P.r.nitidus, P.r.schencki, or P.r. vioscai. I can! It’s a P.r.schencki. Those have the very distinctive feature of having names in the URLs for their picture files. Well, that and the black coloration on the chin. But mostly the name in the URL. Enjoy, Steven [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pseudotriton-ruber-ruber-ignorant-and-intellectually-dishonest-is-no-way-to-go-through-life/594768.md?page=2)