# Pseudotriton ruber ruber is admittedly disingenuous. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 9, 2008, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pseudotriton-ruber-ruber-is-admittedly-disingenuous/467185 "2008-10-09T17:10:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pseudotriton-ruber-ruber-is-admittedly-disingenuous/467185/61 "2008-10-10T14:59:54Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I stopped reading the thread here so I may be late to the party, but what you wrote above is as wrong as it can be. Prison guards and police officers absolutely have the right to kill citizens under certain circumstances. This is so obvious that you must be being intentionally disingenuous to write that. What an illiterate ninny you are! I am the one saying that, “under certain circumstances,” peace officers can kill any citizen, with precisely the same legal justification that a prison guard can kill an inmate, and exactly the same legal justification with which I could crack a brick over your skull until the crud and piss you store up there all oozes out. That justification is known as “self -defense” and I’d have to meet the same standard for killing you that a cop would have to make for shooting a suspect or a guard would have to make for killing an inmate, although in your case a special plea for “exterminating useless vermin” might be entertained. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pseudotriton-ruber-ruber-is-admittedly-disingenuous/467185/62 "2008-10-10T15:22:06Z")
Here’s what I originally said (bolding added here for emphasis: > [@](#): > > Comparisons to how we discipline adults are hilarious. FTR, we ultimately discipline adults through the threat of pain and death. If you break the law, you will be arrested. If you resist arrest you will be physically subdued with pain and violence, or perhaps even killed. While you are incarcerated, you will be supervised by guards who have the authority to physically subdue you, or even kill you, should your level of misbehavior require it **according to their rules and procedures**. You’ve been blathering ever since that guards aren’t allowed to summarily execute i.e. murder people. I never said they were. Nobody in the thread said they were. Jesus, you are one angry, needlessly confrontative retard. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pseudotriton-ruber-ruber-is-admittedly-disingenuous/467185/63 "2008-10-10T15:31:16Z")
So tell us these special “rules and procedures,” you idiot, that allow guards to kill their prisoners that don’t apply to every other fucking person on this planet. I’m waiting. ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pseudotriton-ruber-ruber-is-admittedly-disingenuous/467185/64 "2008-10-10T16:14:40Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > So tell us these special “rules and procedures,” you idiot, that allow guards to kill their prisoners that don’t apply to every other fucking person on this planet. I’m waiting. Er. . . planet? While I’m not 100% sure, I’m guessing that there may be some countries where guards can kill prisoners with impunity while ordinary citizens can’t. And no, I’m not providing a cite cause we’re not in GD and you can’t make me. 😛 But I was with you right up until then. And I’d still agree with you that in most countries in the world, the same rights apply in regards to self-defense and the defense of others for correctional officers as they do for all citizens. And yes, I agree that if correctional officers killed someone under circumstances other than those allowed to every other citizen in _some_ countries (like the U.S.), it would be homocide. ETA: Your rubber what? ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pseudotriton-ruber-ruber-is-admittedly-disingenuous/467185/65 "2008-10-10T16:19:11Z")
You’re right, of course. “Planet” is going too far. There are some badass places on this planet where no laws apply, and some where only bad laws do. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pseudotriton-ruber-ruber-is-admittedly-disingenuous/467185/66 "2008-10-10T16:28:03Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > So tell us these special “rules and procedures,” you idiot, that allow guards to kill their prisoners that don’t apply to every other fucking person on this planet. I’m waiting. It’s impossible to have any kind of discussion with an angry, ranting retard like you. The rules for use of lethal force vary from place to place within the US much less every place “on this planet.” You twist words, you frame questions so vaguely they cannot be answered, you are needlessly offensive, and\_let’s not forget\_ you just plain make shit up. First, you called me a bully and whole bunch of other shit because you assumed, on no evidence whatsoever, that I favored spanking and must beat my daughter. I explained to you that none of that is true, but you then went on to froth that I’m a bully and a brute anyway. That, of course, was all accompanied by a lot of crowing on your part about how you had really shown me a thing or two. You remind me of a retarded kid who got mainstreamed into my classroom early in my career. He was always angry and lashing out because he couldn’t handle the subject material and was always a step behind in conversation with his classmates. Like you, he also compensated by crowing about how smart he was and which of his classmates he made to look stupid. I don’t think you’re really retarded, though. I think you’re just a lying, slimy jerk. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pseudotriton-ruber-ruber-is-admittedly-disingenuous/467185/67 "2008-10-10T16:36:28Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > First, you called me a bully and whole bunch of other shit because you assumed, on no evidence whatsoever, that I favored spanking and must beat my daughter. > \ > I don’t think you’re really retarded, though. I think you’re just a lying, slimy jerk. Yep. Apparently now I also beat my children within an inch of their lives, and I do so in private, so that no one can report me to the police. Because I pointed out how **prr** ’s debating sucks. Whatev. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pseudotriton-ruber-ruber-is-admittedly-disingenuous/467185/68 "2008-10-10T16:39:07Z")
So your argument now consists of listing several of the retards you’ve spent your life socializing with whom you claim I remind you of, and also of what you “think” of me? Imagine how deeply that affects me! To be called a name by the likes of you! I don’t know how I will ever recover from this cunning attack. While I struggle to regain my composure, you might supply us with any one of those “rules and procedures” on which you based your still-astonishing claim that prison guards are entitled to kill their prisoners. I’m still waiting very patiently. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pseudotriton-ruber-ruber-is-admittedly-disingenuous/467185/69 "2008-10-10T16:40:55Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Yep. Apparently now I also beat my children within an inch of their lives, and I do so in private, so that no one can report me to the police. Because I pointed out how **prr** ’s debating sucks. Whatev. :rolleyes: So tell me: where do you beat your kids to within an inch of their lives? Do you do it only behind closed doors? Why? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pseudotriton-ruber-ruber-is-admittedly-disingenuous/467185/70 "2008-10-10T16:42:46Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Here’s what I originally said (bolding added here for emphasis: > You’ve been blathering ever since that guards aren’t allowed to summarily execute i.e. murder people. I never said they were. Nobody in the thread said they were. Jesus, you are one angry, needlessly confrontative retard. Ok, looks like we are all saying the same thing (except that prr wants to show his ass about how exactly scumpup expressed himself). I’m going to file this one under “prr has issues” and move on with life. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pseudotriton-ruber-ruber-is-admittedly-disingenuous/467185/71 "2008-10-10T17:00:05Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > So tell me: where do you beat your kids to within an inch of their lives? Do you do it only behind closed doors? Why? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Jayn\_Newell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jayn\_Newell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayn_Newell)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pseudotriton-ruber-ruber-is-admittedly-disingenuous/467185/72 "2008-10-10T17:01:45Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > So tell me: where do you beat your kids to within an inch of their lives? Do you do it only behind closed doors? Why? Have you stopped beating your wife? ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pseudotriton-ruber-ruber-is-admittedly-disingenuous/467185/73 "2008-10-10T17:06:15Z")
I divorced the bitch. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pseudotriton-ruber-ruber-is-admittedly-disingenuous/467185/74 "2008-10-10T17:11:24Z")
Hmmm… IANALEO but I seem to recall that around certain correctional facilities in the US are high towers that are manned 24-7 by individuals authorized to use deadly force against prisoners. I find it hard to come up with likely scenarios where these persons would as such be acting in a self-defense capacity. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pseudotriton-ruber-ruber-is-admittedly-disingenuous/467185/75 "2008-10-10T20:36:47Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > So tell us these special “rules and procedures,” you idiot, that allow guards to kill their prisoners that don’t apply to every other fucking person on this planet. I’m waiting. If someone tries to leave your house with your tv under his arm, and he’s actually made it off of your property and poses no conceivable physical threat to you, you cannot shoot him. If a prisoner tries to leave prison, even amde it over the fence, a prison guard can shoot him (in the back, even). You could google “prison guards use of force” or “prison guards use of deadly force” if you really wanted to know the answer. Rather it seems you are intent on being contrary and nitpicky and in this case you might just be the nit. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pseudotriton-ruber-ruber-is-admittedly-disingenuous/467185/76 "2008-10-10T21:08:30Z")
> [@whole\_bean](#): > > If someone tries to leave your house with your tv under his arm, and he’s actually made it off of your property and poses no conceivable physical threat to you, you cannot shoot him. If a prisoner tries to leave prison, even amde it over the fence, a prison guard can shoot him (in the back, even). > You could google “prison guards use of force” or “prison guards use of deadly force” if you really wanted to know the answer. Rather it seems you are intent on being contrary and nitpicky and in this case you might just be the nit. Three (count 'em—3) google hits for “prison guards use of force” [none](http://http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGIG_enUS236US236&q=%22prison+guards+use+of+force%22) of which appear to have anything to do with guards killing prisoners, whether by shooting them in the back trying to escape or by singing to them off-key. The third one seems to concern how various types of force are patently illegal. Tell me, did you do a search before you came up with this bullshit or did you just decide to make this suggestion on a guess? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pseudotriton-ruber-ruber-is-admittedly-disingenuous/467185/77 "2008-10-10T21:11:50Z")
[Search harder.](http://articles.latimes.com/1998/oct/24/news/mn-35642) ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pseudotriton-ruber-ruber-is-admittedly-disingenuous/467185/78 "2008-10-10T21:33:56Z")
That search was, by the way, for “prison guard use deadly force” Or search [even harder](http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/vol14_Ch0701-0853/HRS0703/HRS_0703-0307.htm) for “prison guard use deadly force escape”. > [@](#): > > (4) The use of force to prevent the escape of an arrested person from custody is justifiable when the force could justifiably have been employed to effect the arrest under which the person is in custody, except that a guard or other person authorized to act as a law enforcement officer is justified in using force which he believes to be immediately necessary to prevent the escape from a detention facility. [Or](http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/chapters/chap563.htm): > [@](#): > > Use of force to prevent escape from confinement. > > 563.056. 1. A guard or other law enforcement officer may, subject to the provisions of subsection 2, use physical force when he reasonably believes such to be immediately necessary to prevent escape from confinement or in transit thereto or therefrom. > > 1. A guard or other law enforcement officer may use deadly force under circumstances described in subsection 1 only > > (1) When such use of deadly force is authorized under other sections of this chapter; or > > (2) When he reasonably believes there is a substantial risk that the escapee will endanger human life or cause serious physical injury unless the escape is prevented. > > 1. The defendant shall have the burden of injecting the issue of justification under this section. [Or](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=search&case=/data2/circs/6th/980122p.html) > [@](#): > > . Put another way, the question of whether Madden is protected by qualified immunity turns on the objective reasonableness of his actions, assessed in light of the legal rules that were clearly established at the time they were taken and based on the facts available to him. Harlow v. Fitzgerald , 457 U.S. 800, 818-19 (1982); Anderson v. Creighton , 483 U.S. 635, 641 (1987). The District Court in this case concluded that at the time of Gravely’s death it was clearly established under Tennessee v. Garner , 471 U.S. 1 (1985), that a law enforcement officer could not use deadly force to apprehend a fleeing felon unless it was “necessary to prevent the escape” and the officer had “probable cause to believe that the suspect pose[d] a significant threat of serious physical harm, either to the officer or to others.” ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pseudotriton-ruber-ruber-is-admittedly-disingenuous/467185/79 "2008-10-10T21:48:25Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > That search was, by the way, for “prison guard use deadly force” > > Or search [even harder](http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/vol14_Ch0701-0853/HRS0703/HRS_0703-0307.htm) for “prison guard use deadly force escape”. > > [Or](http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/chapters/chap563.htm): > > [Or](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=search&case=/data2/circs/6th/980122p.html) So your first cite was a 1994 article that said "State prison officials, responding to large numbers of inmates who were shot to death or wounded by guards, are revising their policy to sharply restrict the use of deadly force. Cal Terhune, director of the Department of Corrections, said the new policy will forbid state guards to fire assault rifles to stop inmates engaged in nonlethal fistfights and melees. Deadly force will be allowed only if one inmate is inflicting serious injury with a clearly visible weapon to a prison staff member or another inmate." Your second cite was a 1987 ruling that implied that laxer regulations might apply. From this you manage to conclude that the law is making it easier for prison guards to kill prisoners legally? Look at the end of the bit I quoted: “Deadly force will be allowed only if one inmate is inflicting serious injury with a clearly visible weapon to a prison staff member or another inmate.” I believe cops are entitled to use deadly force under similar circumstances in a non-prison setting as well. Whose point are you trying to support here? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pseudotriton-ruber-ruber-is-admittedly-disingenuous/467185/80 "2008-10-10T21:58:05Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > So your first cite was a 1994 article that said Wow. The first cite was from 1998, not 1994. It was one that pointed out, first of all, that use of deadly force was indeed allowed under certain circumstances and that “In all other states combined, only six inmates were killed during the same period–all while trying to escape.” > [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Your second cite was a 1987 ruling that implied that laxer regulations might apply. The second was an undated section from Hawaii’s laws, stating that prison guards could use force to prevent escapes. It specifically goes on to state in the commentary that: “Deadly force may be used to prevent escape from a jail, prison, or similar institution.” The third (which evidently you missed) was from Missouri’s statute, dated 2007, which specifically allowed for deadly force if the prison guard believed that the inmate would pose a threat to human life or health. The fourth was a record of a case where it established, clearly, that the precedent was that deadly force could be used to prevent escape if the officer of the law believed that the fleeing inmate posed a threat to human life. That, by the way, was from 1998. So, to sum up, you totally missed two cites, missed key information in the only one you apparently glanced at but still managed to invent a date of publication for that cite, and evidently invented some ruling where it said that laxer regulation should apply, and invented a year in which it happened, too. What the fuck is wrong with you? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pseudotriton-ruber-ruber-is-admittedly-disingenuous/467185.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pseudotriton-ruber-ruber-is-admittedly-disingenuous/467185.md?page=5)