# Psychic studies in college. Is liberal Europe more "enlightened" or less scientific? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 9, 2003, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychic-studies-in-college-is-liberal-europe-more-enlightened-or-less-scientific/200568 "2003-09-09T17:27:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychic-studies-in-college-is-liberal-europe-more-enlightened-or-less-scientific/200568/21 "2003-09-10T03:14:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Q.E.D. \* > \*\*There’s been serious study for decades with no reproducible results. Those few reputable studies which have purported to show statistically significant results have never been duplicated, leading to the conclusion that either those studies were flawed somehow or there was outright fraud being perpetuated. > > Not to mention that no mechanism for “psychic” ability that explains all of it’s supposed properties has ever been put forth that fits within the parameters of known physics. it’s not electromagnetic, or we would have detected it by now. There’s only three other forces and the only other one that acts at a distance is gravitation, and that’s sure not it, weak as it is. Show me a study whose resluts can be duplicated consistently, and I’ll listen. \*\* I don’t know why no one has ever attempted to duplicate the PEAR experiments. The only experiment that Randi et al use to discredit the results is one that isn’t materially similar. Were certain reasonable objections to their methods brought to the fore? Yes, but it still seems worth it to bring Randi in to oversee another round. I don’t buy the idea that you need a mechanism to explain an anomaly before acknowledging that an anomaly exists. We can’t explain the results of the double slit wave interference experiments either but the results will nevertheless be helpful in any attempt to create an explanation later. PEAR: [http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/2.html](http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/2.html) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychic-studies-in-college-is-liberal-europe-more-enlightened-or-less-scientific/200568/22 "2003-09-10T05:42:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KidCharlemagne \* > \*\*This is a ridiculous statement. This thinking is flawed as those who sign up for the courses. \*\* How is it flawed? What’s ridiculous about it? Why does psychic phenomena deserve any more serious consideration than the existence of elves? ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychic-studies-in-college-is-liberal-europe-more-enlightened-or-less-scientific/200568/23 "2003-09-10T13:16:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*How is it flawed? What’s ridiculous about it? Why does psychic phenomena deserve any more serious consideration than the existence of elves? \*\* I may be willing to bet the farm that they won’t find anything statistically significant in their research but I’d never say that there aren’t reasonable experiments to conduct. Hell, even the experiments on telepathy that use the cards with the five different shapes drawn on them is a reasonable experiment if performed correctly. Whether or not psychic phenomena deserves serious consideration is a different question than whether there or not there is a possiblility of studying it. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychic-studies-in-college-is-liberal-europe-more-enlightened-or-less-scientific/200568/24 "2003-09-10T15:26:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Q.E.D. \* > **Not to mention that no mechanism for “psychic” ability that explains all of it’s supposed properties has ever been put forth that fits within the parameters of known physics. it’s not electromagnetic, or we would have detected it by now. There’s only three other forces and the only other one that acts at a distance is gravitation, and that’s sure not it, weak as it is.** While I don’t think that there is anything to telepathy and other psychic abilities, neither do I think that this is much of an argument against it. Magnets worked long before we had an understanding of the physical laws that made it all happen. Phenomena can exist outside of our understanding of them. But putting all that aside, I would like to see this discipline go forward (so long as I’m not having to pay for it). If they actually find anything it could prove to be one of the great advancements in science and philosophy, annd if they don’t then maybe people will shut the fuck up about it. Oh, who am I kidding? ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2003, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychic-studies-in-college-is-liberal-europe-more-enlightened-or-less-scientific/200568/25 "2003-09-10T16:45:55Z")
Ridiculous or not, I don’t see any problem with this setup. Sure, even if nothing comes of it, cranks the world over will use this as an example that there MUST be something to it. Kinda strange. Some sort of systematic approach to these kinds of things will definately be benificial. Though I do wonder why testing for something before there seems to be a cause and effect is valid. I doubt telepathy exists. I see no mechanism by which it could work, nor why there would be selection pressure for it need to exist. I do wonder though, if Telepathy existed, would those that have it be very sucessful, or extremely mad? With all the fear that the idea of telepathy would bring about, bigotry, hatred, etc, why would anybody want to find evidence for it? If all it does is drive a person insane, who would want to develop it? If anything, I say let sleeping dragons lie. If you have it, you know it exists, if you don’t- do you really want evidence that there are people reading your mind? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychic-studies-in-college-is-liberal-europe-more-enlightened-or-less-scientific/200568/26 "2003-09-11T05:58:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KidCharlemagne \* > I don’t buy the idea that you need a mechanism to explain an anomaly before acknowledging that an anomaly exists. We can’t explain the results of the double slit wave interference experiments either but the results will nevertheless be helpful in any attempt to create an explanation later. Who’s “we”? I can explain them just fine. ---
**Author:** ![Kalimero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aca169/32.png) [@Kalimero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalimero)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychic-studies-in-college-is-liberal-europe-more-enlightened-or-less-scientific/200568/27 "2003-09-11T10:13:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > \*\*Results from a survey published in Seed Trade News December 1999 (Ball > Publishing, Batavia, Illinois.). The survey source was Thomas J Hoban, > 1999. > > The question was “ordinary tomatoes do not contain genes while genetically > modified ones do” The survey was done is several countries with the > following results (n percent of responses): > > ``` > false don't know true > > ``` > > Austria 34 22 44 > Canada 52 33 15 > Finland 44 27 29 > France 32 39 29 > Germany 36 20 44 > Ireland 20 51 29 > Italy 35 44 21 > Netherlands 51 27 22 > Spain 28 46 26 > Sweden 46 24 30 > UK 40 38 22 > USA 45 45 10 \*\* :eek: :smack: Thanks! This should be quite useful when time someone complains about those ignorant americans again. ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychic-studies-in-college-is-liberal-europe-more-enlightened-or-less-scientific/200568/28 "2003-09-11T12:53:25Z")
Note that Sweden had the second-highest percentage of people who believe that ordinary tomatos do not contain genes while genetically modified ones do. Austria and Germany were tied for “first” place. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2003, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychic-studies-in-college-is-liberal-europe-more-enlightened-or-less-scientific/200568/29 "2003-09-11T13:16:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > \*\* > > ```auto > > false don't know true > Austria 34 22 44 > Canada 52 33 15 > Finland 44 27 29 > France 32 39 29 > Germany 36 20 44 > Ireland 20 51 29 > Italy 35 44 21 > Netherlands 51 27 22 > Spain 28 46 26 > Sweden 46 24 30 > UK 40 38 22 > USA 45 45 10 > > ``` > > \*\* I’m always very, very skeptical of these kinds of surveys. Where did they get their samples? What was the context of the question? If the same question were asked in a different way would the results have been different? ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2003, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychic-studies-in-college-is-liberal-europe-more-enlightened-or-less-scientific/200568/30 "2003-09-12T00:35:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Ryan \* > \*\*Who’s “we”? I can explain them just fine. \*\* Please do then. And not just, “You see sometimes photons act like a particle and sometimes like a wave.” ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2003, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychic-studies-in-college-is-liberal-europe-more-enlightened-or-less-scientific/200568/31 "2003-09-12T01:24:31Z")
I hate to tell you this, **KidCharlemagne** , but the explanation _ **is** _ that photons act like both a particle and a wave. They are a “particle” in the sense that they cannot be suibdivided, i.e. a photon of a given frequency carries a precise amount of energy and momentum, when you perform an experiment that could measure its energy or momentum. They are a “wave” in the sense that they are the result of oscillating electric and magnetic fields. When a photon passes through a double-slit, it doesn’t pass through one slit or the other, it passes through **both** at the same time. This might not seem like much in the way of an “explanation”, because photons behave so much differently than anything you’re used to in ordinary experience (and thus it’s impossible to make a useful analogy between a photon and anything macroscopic you’re likely to encounter), but we can predict their behavior using such wave-particle duality models very very nicely. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2003, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychic-studies-in-college-is-liberal-europe-more-enlightened-or-less-scientific/200568/32 "2003-09-12T01:42:12Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by tracer \* > \*\* When a photon passes through a double-slit, it doesn’t pass through one slit or the other, it passes through **both** at the same time._\* It’s a bit more strange than that. In fact, the photon takes _every possible path from the source to the target simultaneously_. Each path has a probability associated with it, with the more direct paths having the highest probabilities. In theory, though, you could get the same result if the two slits were light years apart (except that the farther apart they are, the fuzzier the result due to the lower probabilities of the longer paths). The universe is weird enough without needing to invent silliness like psychic powers. ---
**Author:** ![Rayn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85e7bf/32.png) [@Rayn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rayn)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2003, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychic-studies-in-college-is-liberal-europe-more-enlightened-or-less-scientific/200568/33 "2003-09-12T02:09:30Z")
I don’t see why people have a problem with this university studying the paranormal. There are several institutions out there that are already involved in studying such phenomena, such as the Rhine Research Center in Germany. Also, as has been said, it is from a private funder, so there is no issue about taking funding away from more “valuable” pursuits. As far as a mechanism goes, I would have to say an interpretation of quantum mechanics, that of the Holographic Universe may provide a foundation for such phenomena: [http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000BB22F-9AFB-1F0B-97AE80A84189EEDF&catID=9](http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000BB22F-9AFB-1F0B-97AE80A84189EEDF&catID=9) Basically, based on the ultimate interconnectedness of the universe, it is quite possible that some “thoughts” may be able to be spread through these connections. Also, there are several models of quantum consciousness, which deal with information coding at the protein level, where the quantum level meets the classical level of physics. Although obviously not conclusive by any means, I do believe that there is some foundation in science that can be used to provide for such phenomena, and wouldn’t dismiss findings out of hand. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2003, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychic-studies-in-college-is-liberal-europe-more-enlightened-or-less-scientific/200568/34 "2003-09-12T02:14:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rayn \* > \*\*I do believe that there is some foundation in science that can be used to provide for such phenomena, and wouldn’t dismiss findings out of hand. \*\* What findings? As stated earlier, thus far any studies which have purported to show an effect have never been duplicated and in nearly all cases have been shown to have been flawed or fraudulent. ---
**Author:** ![Rayn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85e7bf/32.png) [@Rayn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rayn)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2003, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychic-studies-in-college-is-liberal-europe-more-enlightened-or-less-scientific/200568/35 "2003-09-12T02:20:43Z")
Well, I still believe that there could be some experimental methodology that is created to detect such phenomena, if it exists, and I thought that the ganzfeld procedures were somewhat effective? I’m not the most well-read on such studies, but again, I just feel we should keep an open mind on it. Plus, I still think subjective experience does in many ways count as evidence, just not scientific evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2003, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychic-studies-in-college-is-liberal-europe-more-enlightened-or-less-scientific/200568/36 "2003-09-12T02:22:03Z")
Hehe, I love it when people try to figure out HOW something works, before they even establish THAT it works. Hehe. ---
**Author:** ![Rayn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85e7bf/32.png) [@Rayn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rayn)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2003, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychic-studies-in-college-is-liberal-europe-more-enlightened-or-less-scientific/200568/37 "2003-09-12T02:51:29Z")
😜 Ah well, just trying to make a case that it’s logically possible under some interpretations of QM that phenomena could occur. It’s not completely unprecedented. The Aspect experiments just recently conclusively showed that quantum entanglement definitively occurs, and the bending of light due to large gravity fields showed relativity theory to be true, even though it had been accepted for decades. ---
**Author:** ![GOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GOM)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychic-studies-in-college-is-liberal-europe-more-enlightened-or-less-scientific/200568/38 "2003-09-13T06:31:03Z")
\*Psi Wars \* [http://www.newscientist.com/opinion/opbooks.jsp?id=ns24122](http://www.newscientist.com/opinion/opbooks.jsp?id=ns24122) ---
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychic-studies-in-college-is-liberal-europe-more-enlightened-or-less-scientific/200568/39 "2003-09-13T07:44:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rayn \* > \*\*Ah well, just trying to make a case that it’s logically possible under some interpretations of QM that phenomena could occur. It’s not completely unprecedented. The Aspect experiments just recently conclusively showed that quantum entanglement definitively occurs, and the bending of light due to large gravity fields showed relativity theory to be true, even though it had been accepted for decades. \*\* Phenomena occur! In other news bears defecate rurally and the Pope believes he’s the head of the church! Sorry, I know phenomenon can be used to mean 'unusual, inexplicable event but I normally use it in the ‘any observable event’ sense, so that sentance was amusing to me 😃 But you make a good point. It seems incredibly unlikely that a human body could use quantum effects for telepathy, etc, but it’s not _impossible_ afaik. And some amazing things have evolved; engineers learn from nature all the time. More to the point the evidence that anything psycic occurs is missing. My first reaction was one of amazement. But if (1) the chair is an endowment, so the university’s not spending and money and (2) they investigate things seriously (presumably finding nothing) it actually makes a lot of sense. If only because so many people believe these things it’s useful to have someone devoted to evaluating stuff seriously, rather than just assuming they don’t work. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychic-studies-in-college-is-liberal-europe-more-enlightened-or-less-scientific/200568/40 "2003-09-13T16:04:03Z")
I didn’t read all of the posts in the whole thread because this subjects is stale besides being silly, so mayber someone else has already pointed this out. Universities studying parapsychology is old hat so this “latest European great leap forward” isn’t all that new. JB Rhine started his “studies” in ESP at Duke University in the early 1930’s and nothing but a lot of cooked data came from them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychic-studies-in-college-is-liberal-europe-more-enlightened-or-less-scientific/200568.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psychic-studies-in-college-is-liberal-europe-more-enlightened-or-less-scientific/200568.md?page=3)