# "Psycho letters from men": Did this guy deserve the article? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 23, 2009, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psycho-letters-from-men-did-this-guy-deserve-the-article/504037 "2009-07-23T21:07:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psycho-letters-from-men-did-this-guy-deserve-the-article/504037/41 "2009-07-24T18:56:22Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > What part of “stereotypical frat asshole” does this contradict? I’m not understanding your “oh come on”. 😕 I protest your description of the chick as clingy, if not, sadly, clueless. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psycho-letters-from-men-did-this-guy-deserve-the-article/504037/42 "2009-07-24T18:58:52Z")
She’s an idiot, he’s a jerk. If he led her on just to fuck her and dump her, that’s assholish behavior. But that doesn’t mean that he was under any obligation to continue dating her. Now it may be that he had a genuine romantic interest in her, but changed his mind some time during or after the sex. It happens. (I doubt this was the case, though.) His actions from that point on were understandable. His words were not. Accusing her of faking the pregnancy and of being a whore are about as classless as you can get. You lose your Man Card over something like that. And while he didn’t have to suck up to her, he could have at least acted a little more sensitively to her. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psycho-letters-from-men-did-this-guy-deserve-the-article/504037/43 "2009-07-24T19:11:25Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > I protest your description of the chick as clingy, if not, sadly, clueless. From the description (and remember we are getting her side only), it sounds like she kept after him long past the point where it was obvious he’s dumped her. > [@](#): > > Kathy was devastated, and admits she might have gone a little overboard at first with the calls, emails and late-night texts to Todd. But she missed him terribly. Overboard with the calls, emails and “late night texts” after he’s not returning her calls and refuses to see her = clingy. She admits as much (qualified in her account with “a little”, which probably means “a lot”). They dated for a bit, he fucked her, he dumped her. Just how long did she keep up the “calls, emails and late night texts”? For weeks? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psycho-letters-from-men-did-this-guy-deserve-the-article/504037/44 "2009-07-24T19:20:11Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Oh come on, did you read the article? This wasn’t a random hookup at the Pikes’ Pimps and Hos (Hoes?) party. This was a guy who went on dates with her and knew she was a virgin. It was totally an ultra-douche move on his part; I would have thought most men would have agreed. How is her being dumb and naive and him being an ultra-douche incompatible? ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psycho-letters-from-men-did-this-guy-deserve-the-article/504037/45 "2009-07-24T19:32:52Z")
Thinking about this a little further, the level of his jerkness depends on what was going through his mind. Possibility 1: He had a genuine interest in dating her, but changed his mind some time after they had sex. We don’t know if that was minutes or days or weeks. Possibility 2: He just wanted her for sex, and thought that’s all she wanted too. Possibility 3: He led her on knowing he would dump her. Sadly, #3 is the most likely, and that makes him a complete tool. If it was #2, his actions are a little more understandable. Even more so if he saw her making out with other guys. #1 is somewhere in the middle, with strong tool tendancies. In any case what he said in e-mail was pretty jerkish. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psycho-letters-from-men-did-this-guy-deserve-the-article/504037/46 "2009-07-24T19:48:53Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > From the description (and remember we are getting her side only), it sounds like she kept after him long past the point where it was obvious he’s dumped her. > > Overboard with the calls, emails and “late night texts” after he’s not returning her calls and refuses to see her = clingy. She admits as much (qualified in her account with “a little”, which probably means “a lot”). > > They dated for a bit, he fucked her, he dumped her. Just how long did she keep up the “calls, emails and late night texts”? For weeks? Sure, her naïveté and his ultra-doucheté are not inconsistent. Even that and her clinginess are not inconsistent. But the suggestion that she is as much to blame as he is is not correct. I would put it at closer to 90-10, well beyond the clear and convincing standard for inclusion in PLFM. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psycho-letters-from-men-did-this-guy-deserve-the-article/504037/47 "2009-07-24T19:54:19Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Oh come on, did you read the article? This wasn’t a random hookup at the Pikes’ Pimps and Hos (Hoes?) party. This was a guy who went on dates with her and knew she was a virgin. It was totally an ultra-douche move on his part; I would have thought most men would have agreed. > > Look, I know when you get hot and heavy you say a lot of things you regret once you climax (things like, “Yes, I want to see you again.”). (And women tell me they have go through the same thing.) But those aren’t the circumstances here, and he totally led her on. Nothing a guy says _before_ sex means anything. Nobody’s saying he wasn’t a douche, we’re saying it should have been obvious to her all along that he was a douche, and that she really had no basis to expect anything better. It’s like the time I bought some loose joints from this really sketchy, seedy looking dude at a bus stop. He promised me it was really good weed. It turned out to be oregano rolled up into pin joints. I got burned. He lied. But it was my own fault for being a moron enough to trust some skeeveball at a bus stop in the first place. I was 18. You live and you learn. What kind of airhead believes what a frat boy says when he’s trying to get into her pants? They had a few dates. Big deal. That doesn’t mean they had established a relationship, just that he hadn’t closed yet. No, it’s not nice, but it’s not relevant that it’s not nice. She has only herself to blame. It shouldn’t be a news bulletin that guys will say anything to get laid. If we turn this around, and hypothesize a woman who takes a guy’s virginity, then stops calling him, and ignoring him when he gets all stalkery, does anybody feel sorry for the guy? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psycho-letters-from-men-did-this-guy-deserve-the-article/504037/48 "2009-07-24T19:57:58Z")
> [@](#): > > Sure, her naïveté and his ultra-doucheté are not inconsistent. Even that and her clinginess are not inconsistent. But the suggestion that she is as much to blame as he is is not correct. I would put it at closer to 90-10, well beyond the clear and convincing standard for inclusion in PLFM. How sexist and paternalistic. You heard it here first kids, girls are not responsible for their own actions. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psycho-letters-from-men-did-this-guy-deserve-the-article/504037/49 "2009-07-24T19:58:02Z")
To be fair, **Dio** , there are some college guys that actually do want relationships. Even drunken frat boys. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psycho-letters-from-men-did-this-guy-deserve-the-article/504037/50 "2009-07-24T20:15:52Z")
Sure. There are also seedy guys at bus stops who really have good weed. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psycho-letters-from-men-did-this-guy-deserve-the-article/504037/51 "2009-07-24T20:17:04Z")
When you have sex, you’re accepting the possibility that pregnancy might result. If you’re not willing to accept that possibility, then you shouldn’t be having sex. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psycho-letters-from-men-did-this-guy-deserve-the-article/504037/52 "2009-07-24T20:24:24Z")
Um, I’m not sure what to make of your sarcasm. Do you actually believe that no college boy, at any time in the history of college, has actually wanted a girlfriend? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psycho-letters-from-men-did-this-guy-deserve-the-article/504037/53 "2009-07-24T20:34:13Z")
I’m saying that the fact that some wild mushrooms are harmless doesn’t mean you go around randomly eating wild mushrooms. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psycho-letters-from-men-did-this-guy-deserve-the-article/504037/54 "2009-07-24T20:43:45Z")
Ah. Agreed, then. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psycho-letters-from-men-did-this-guy-deserve-the-article/504037/55 "2009-07-24T21:20:55Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > How sexist and paternalistic. > > You heard it here first kids, girls are not responsible for their own actions. 😉 Isn’t that basically the consensus, both on the left and the right? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psycho-letters-from-men-did-this-guy-deserve-the-article/504037/56 "2009-07-24T22:01:02Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Nobody’s saying he wasn’t a douche, we’re saying it should have been obvious to her all along that he was a douche, and that she really had no basis to expect anything better. Nobody but the OP, you mean. The question presented to us for debate was whether Todd was a douchebag (the OP’s girlfriend believes he is, the OP disagrees), not whether Kathy was naive, an idiot, etc. I’m not sure why the OP felt this was a debate so great that it needed to be in Great Debates, though. It seems more like IMHO material. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psycho-letters-from-men-did-this-guy-deserve-the-article/504037/57 "2009-07-24T22:16:29Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > How sexist and paternalistic. > > You heard it here first kids, girls are not responsible for their own actions. 😉 > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Nobody’s saying he wasn’t a douche, we’re saying it should have been obvious to her all along that he was a douche, and that she really had no basis to expect anything better. I don’t understand these claims. The only way I can make sense of them is if you claim that women have some sort of douchebag-ESP which will alert them to imminent douchefulness and if they persevere nevertheless, only they are to blame for their unhappiness. I don’t think this can be seriously maintained. But! I would like to see this theory floated the next time we get one of our periodic “Why won’t women ever give me a chance (to sex them)?” threads. ---
**Author:** ![Other\_Dreams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Other\_Dreams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Other_Dreams)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psycho-letters-from-men-did-this-guy-deserve-the-article/504037/58 "2009-07-24T22:53:16Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > Originally Posted by aruvqan View Post > but I expect most guys nowadays to be entitlement whores and jackasses A broad generalisation such as this is bound to offend people, specifically males. That isn’t to say that you _have_ to care by my standards of morality; I am merely pointing out what may have caused **Chessic Sense** to reply in the way he did: > [@](#): > > Lemme guess; back in your day, men were paragons of virtue, right? … ~S.P.I.~ ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psycho-letters-from-men-did-this-guy-deserve-the-article/504037/59 "2009-07-24T23:02:43Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > Isn’t that basically the consensus, both on the left and the right? Yes generally. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psycho-letters-from-men-did-this-guy-deserve-the-article/504037/60 "2009-07-24T23:17:19Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > I don’t understand these claims. The only way I can make sense of them is if you claim that women have some sort of douchebag-ESP which will alert them to imminent douchefulness and if they persevere nevertheless, only they are to blame for their unhappiness. It’s called learning by experience. We hold people responsible for their ignorance all the time. Why is it different in this case? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psycho-letters-from-men-did-this-guy-deserve-the-article/504037.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/psycho-letters-from-men-did-this-guy-deserve-the-article/504037.md?page=4)